As you pointed out the head-shape is just one factor .. As you mentioned many players still prefer rackets with the classic shape ovals.. For Example Nathan Robertsson (which I think is a great example as Carlton still produces the same rackets both in ISO and classic). cheers, Twobeer
A few quick questions to get you guys wondering: 1)If oval heads really are superior: a)would yonex not heavily advertise it? b)would yonex not advance the cab series?(ie use new materials) c)would professional players not use it?(since every little advantage matters at the pro level) d)even if ovals gave you better "punch" you get less sweetspot and NO PLAYER can hit on the sweet spot 100% of the time, not even the pros, everyone will have mishits. Would you trade forgiveness of an isometric for 1-2% more punch in an oval?? e)what do you think is the reason why yonex stopped advancing the carbonex series?
God XtC-604 ... this is fodder for the old-timers (like me). All these questions have been answered before. -dave
Since it is Friday and I am board and I don't want to do any work. Here is my answers. a) It's like getting married, you find one you love then you get married. You know it is good. It's always there. (I hope) Always dependable (depend?) b) No need. die hard will alway buy one when he/she needs one. c) Money talk. Yonex want to promote newer racquet with bigger profet margin. So they pay a lot of money to the pro to use the racquet and the manufacture charge more for the newer racquet. d) Forgiveness is when your wife caught you cheating on her. That is when you really need it. e) People use Cab series are old timer who are more experienced. I think skill and experience are more important than a new racquet.
Well since it is friday i'm going to have to retort =) a) Just because there is already an existing market, it doesn't mean that a company doesn't need to advertise anymore. b) There could be a need, as die hards might want to try something new when the current one is discontinued c) If its just about money, then Yonex can simply add things (ultimum ti, nanoscale or w.e)to the carbonex series and sell carbonexes for the same as a armortec900, then they can also force pros to use the oval heads d) Forgiveness is not only needed when your wife catches you cheating, as i'm only 17 and not married, for me forgiveness matters on court and when my parents yell at me for only grabbing 6 "A"s e) Not necessarily, i know someone who is just starting out and wants to use an oval head, and i never stated that skill and experience are less important than a new racquet. The point i'm trying to say is that there has to be reason why everyone is turning their heads from oval heads and moving on to other shapes. (tear drop, isometric, circle and even triangle !!!)
Most people from the younger generation grew up using isos. As for oval people converting to isos, it's because they want a better racquet, and it just seems that the high end armortecs, nanospeeds, and muscle powers might suit them.
heh, not really, cause when a person starts out, they'll usually just bring a racquet from home which is most likely an oval head, that was no different for me, started using oval and grew into an isometric because i went to abbies and swung the racquets around and found that i liked the feeling of an armortec and hence i'm a super armortec fan now =)
Lol, many of these questions have been answered if you take your time to read around the forums. anywho: a) The other guy has a point. If you haven't noticed advertisement trends, companies (the ones producing products, not dept. stores) tend to advertise 'new' products more heavily than older products. This is especially true since CAB series is over 20 years old. Have you seen any company advertise something they have out for over 20 years and have not made any effort to 'perfect' the product? I mean if you look at it, do you see lots of advertisement for MP99+100 or any of the slightly older series for that matter? Most of their advertisement is shifted towards newer products most of the time. b) Die hards will always be die hards. Supply does not play into the factor of if they want it or if they like it or not. As for your answer to your question, reading this thread will answer this question. c) Force pros to use it? They can't really force anything on them. They might use it for a while, but they'll eventually switch back after a month or two. Back on the question though, to sum it up, Pros have preferences. Again, read this thread, and your answer will be found. d) Yes, I definitely would trade forgiveness for a more punch. I don't know about 1-2%, but in my perception it feels more than that. In my personal experience, I used to own an AT800OF. I loved that racket. Then I bought a CAB30MS for a back up racket and LOVED that racket even more. Do you know why? The CAB30MS improved my technique and shot accuracy better than my AT800OF ever can. Even when I switch back, I can feel the improved shot accuracy that I had gotten from my CAB30 on my AT800OF. Forgiveness is merely a slight handicap factor. Once you overcome that handicap and improve your shot accuracy percentage, that handicap is almost obliterated. e)Again the answer to this question can be found in this thread or somewhere in this forum. (Whenever I say this, it's because the people who answered this question can field it much better than I ever can) To sum up what I've read though, adding new materials doesn't exactly perfect it further. --------------- I'm quite the opposite of you XTC. I grew up on ISOs (Ti-7, AT800OF) and now I've grown to use CABs (CAB30MS, CAB20 Tour Special). I still like ISOs, but I only use them on my off-days. I call them my 'lazyrackets'. lol, don't get me wrong, I still love the Armortec series, which is why I'm getting a AT900P to replace my broken AT800OF I had for nearly 4 years, but I just like the CAB series much right now because as I've said, I haven't found a racket in the CAB series I wasn't satisfied with.
a )Well ever thought about the idea that advertising their "old" product might be beneficial to their sales? b ) how does supply not matter to die hards? Even for me, i'm already pissed at how there are no more old color at700s to be found anywhere near me. If there is no supply then how can there be demand? c)ok think about it this way, if what you think is true then how come Lin Dan has not used the at900p?(hes the model for that racquet) d)If an oval head really gives more than 1-2% would yonex not advertise "Carbonex series gives XXXXX 6% more power!", im sure that they would considering they marketed how armortecs give 4% more power...oh btw so you're saying a racquet will improve your technique? improve your accuracy? All those depend on the player not the racquet, any player with any racquet will be able to achieve accuracy and good technique with practice NOT gear. e)im not saying adding materials perfects a product, but i simply stated that Yonex could add materials to the carbonex series to drive up the prices to increase their gains, but why do you think yonex doesn't?
xtc-604, what hybridragon have said were well thought out, plus most of ur questions were answered before elsewhere. I guess your 6 A's are from high school as most of the reasons are related to economic, political, and finance which high school doesn't teach i presume
a) Name a company that has effectively advertise their 20+ year old products and has successfully boosted sales even further despite the fact it's already fairly popular. I don't see a need to. In Yonex's point of view, this might be a waste of money. b) How does it not matter? Die hards are called die hards because they will get the racket no matter how scarce the supply is. If it was me, I don't care if it was scarce, I'd find a way to find it one way or another. Of course I'd be pissed, but that's no excuse to stop looking for it. And you know, there is new thing called the internet and online shops. You know, you can like... buy stuff from FAAAAAR away? lol, I was thinking of supply in more of an international level than local level. c) Woah woah, stop right there. You're the one that said to force pros to use certain 'new' rackets. Lin Dan prefers to use the AT700 so he switches back to it. That's exactly what I meant. Of course he's not going to use the AT900P if he doesn't like the feel of it. I don't know this for a fact, but the fact that he's not using AT900P even though he's advertising it says something. You kinda just supported what I said in my last post. I never said they'd switch to a CAB or something. I just said Pros will switch back to what they like, whether it is a CAB, Armortec, or otherwise. I think you've mistaken what I've said. Edit: In addition you're asking these questions on the basis that CABs are superior. I'm just answering these questions in a realist view, so they might contradict to what you are aiming to argue for. But whatever it may be, I suggest you directly say it instead of trying to corner someone into some kind of conclusion. d) Of course, I was training with people playing B and C flights, so that was the biggest part in why I improved, but I didn't bother to tell you that. :] And did you not read what I wrote? It does have some effect on improving your technique and shot accuracy. Smaller sweet spot and less forgiveness FORCES you to hit better. I've experienced it and I stand by my statement. I didn't say it was the absolute and biggest contributor to improvement in technique. But I said it contributed MORE than my Armortec did, which in fact it did. This is a comparison of helpfulness in improving shot accuracy with rackets. Not a statement that gear trumps training. It would be stupid to say only equipment was the one that improves technique the greatest. If still don't get why it improves shot accuracy, I don't mind elaborating even further on how it helps. e) I guess you didn't make the connection then. If the product is not better, why would anyone buy it? Besides they have the Armortec series to do that. They've already done it to AT700 and Ti-10. Have their sales gone up? I don't know, but I doubt it. You need a good reason to drive up prices, or you'll just suffer a loss. If you can convince the consumers and drive up demand, driving up prices will just drive down demand. Simple economics. But just so you know, they have actually improved the CAB series by putting slightly advance materials in them. You know what this racket is called? CAB30MS. :]
a) Not all of the racquets in the carbonex series are 20 years old, what i meant was they can still advertise for an already well known series, to increase reach into other markets, and a good example of one such company would be Coke, coke is 20+ years old and they still heavily advertise it, classic coke is more advertise than their recent offerings such as coca cola zero. b) ...No matter how many different ways there are to buy a racquet, EVENTUALLY there will be no more supply since the racquet was discontinued, and die hards will be forced to use something else, and i only gave an example in the local level, but the same applies to international level... c)No i believe in my original post i had asked wouldn't pros CHOOSE to use an oval head if it really gives them that 1-2% more power, i even explained my thought on how at the pro level EVERY minor benefit matters. To prove something you must first prove what it is not, that is how math works, there is a chapter in highschool math, called LOGIC, you must first assume what the person says is true, hence i have assumed that Ovals are superior. d)An oval head may aid you in training, but you can still achieve 97% of the training with an isometric or other headshape as the player can see or feel the difference when they miss the sweetspot. e)Simple economics you say? Well a sales vs profit graph takes the shape of a parabola, low price = high sales but no profit, very high price = no sales, the magical sale price is what companies aim for (a good balance between sales and profit) which is indicated by the vertex of the graph. BTW most people who buy racquets know NOTHING of which racquet suits them, i have seen countless times where a person goes into a racquet shop, and asks the worker "which racquet is best for me, or Which racquet do you recommend" and the worker will automatically tell them the latest most expensive racquet best suits them. Since the majority of buyers are like that, there isn't such a high need for yonex or anyother company to justify the price hike. PS cab30ms is not what i call advanced...it has barely of yonex's new technologies, no power frame, no aerobox, none of that, no nano carbon bull crap, no ti mesh, so on. If yonex was to implement more technologies then they could penetrate into more markets and even convince die hards to try them out. One last thing Cooler: Highschools do teach that, we even have special classes for economics and such and just because these questions that you refer to may have been answered by what YOU think is the correct answer, it doesn't necessarily mean that there is no other correct answer.
Cab30 has MS frame. Yonex do not have "power" frame. Cab30 has UL Ti, same as the high end MP. Ti mash is not needed because the Oval shape. Aerobox was used on my AR80 which was bought in 1988. a)If everyone know about Cab Ser. why should Tonex spend more money to tell you what you know already? Coke 0 is a new product, it is not an old product. Wrong example b)As long as Yonex can still make money at acceptable margin, why stop? c)Pro chose a racquet fits them well and what pays them most for the endorsement. Money talk. d)what is your point? e)Yonex want to maximize their profit. So as long as there is a good profit margin and you can sell enough, why stop? If I can sell you 100 AT900 at $60 profit/racquet and I can sell you 100 Cab30ms for $30 profit/racquet. Which one will you put your money to advertise?
a) Nice, I didn't think you'd use a food product to compare with a non-edible object. What I meant, if you haven't noticed when I say 20+ years, is the series itself. Most of the rackets in the CAB series are at least over 10 years old. Going back to your Coke example however, Classic coke is its single biggest seller and has been. It's new versions of coke have never taken over the classic in sales. However in Yonex's case, Armortec and MusclePower series are outselling the CAB series. Why do you think this is the case? Unlike Coke, which sells based on flavor, Yonex sells based on creating better technology. ISO frame was an immense breakthrough in expanding the sweet spot. Most people would prefer a larger sweet spot, thus this technology succeeded. Anywho, bottom line, your analogy is flawed, Coke's subsequent products are not superior to it's original, but on the other hand, Yonex created a different series that is on par or even better than the CAB series in one way or another. Maybe I should have been even more specific with demand for an anology. Probably the best way to ever answer this question is sending Yonex an email telling them to advertise more. I'm sure they'll be glad to take that advice if it really works. I can only do so much speculation of why Yonex doesn't advertise CABs more. I'm not Yonex's head CEO, so I won't know why the true reason why it's not advertised more. I don't mind if US was selling different kind of Cabs out here though. b) Look in the Buy and Sell section of the forum. I have seen so many rackets that are not made anymore being sold and exchanged all the time. There is this thing called a flow of trade and goods. Goods don't stay in one place forever. People will exchange and sell stuff. Basis of a free market? Hello? And it's not like all CABs are out of production either. You're dealing with an absolute scenario again, which hasn't happened yet. c) Lol, no, logic can be defined in many ways. Logic can be philosophical or even Electrical Engineering based. I don't need your lecturing on math based 'logic' since it has no applications here. Mathematical logic at best is to use proofs to show that function exists or the mathematical law is true. If it's taken outside of a mathematical context, it's useless. What you were referring to was philosophical logic at most. Shame. We're are using words are we not? Not numbers? Thus, if any logic, you're going to use, has to be philosophical, not mathematical. We're not proving one plus one is two. We're proving our opinions through a manner of grounding our claims. In a sense, there is no one correct or wrong answer like math, but just a matter of who is better at proving and grounding their point. We don't live in a world of scenarios and 'what ifs'. I didn't expect I needed to lecture you on this, but since you brought it up like you knew what you were talking about,so I just had to bash it. Anyway, moving on... You are dealing all these scenarios in 'absolutism' while I'm being realist about it. There can never be absolute scenarios where one thing HAS to better than another. There are many factors that affect the choices you make, and not just one. CABs are not absolutely superior to any racket. Neither are ISOs for that matter. I don't believe anyone has made that claim. You're molding my claim to how you want it. You're saying statements that I haven't even made yet. (Prime example: You stating that I claim that equipment trumps training. That was a surprise.) There are aspects of CABs which most CAB lovers fall in love with. It is those certain aspects that are superior to ISOs that we like. Of course, ISOs have their superiority to CABs as well. ISOs have greater capacity for hitting the sweet spot and probably better stability at certain situations. Pros are similar to this in a way. They have preferences because of the characteristics that a racket has. You are framing my claim only under the pretext that CABs are absolutely superior to everything. I'll let you know that I'm answering them not on the basis that CABs are absolutely superior. d) You can, but not to precision that a CAB can. My precision in other rackets increased because of the CAB. Of course you can train with ISOs, but I'm just saying this is the possible benefit of practicing with a CAB. And of course, everyone is different, so some may be able to force themselves out of bad habits when using a smaller sweet spot, some may not. Depends on the person's adaptability. It took me a while to be able to do this, so I won't say I'm even good at it. e) Stores will sell them the most expensive racket as you say. But I highly doubt CAB series will be the most expensive one. Or the even within the top four of the most expensive rackets even if you hike the price. (NS9000S, NS9000X, AT900P and AT900T already take four of the top five spots) CAB30MS is already around $110USD and that's probably the most expensive CAB racket and it's doing fairly well. Are advocating that Yonex should raise prices to suck more money from consumers just for the hell of it? Sucks for the consumer (which is you and me by the way), and it's good for the producer. And I think I was hinting at Supply and Demand graph more so than a Sales Price v. Profit graph. But okay, suppose we are dealing with your Sale/Profit graph. Tell me how you determine/calculate the shift in the parabola by adding new technology and raising prices on the CAB series. I'm curious what your answer will be. (Which in turn will shift your magical vertex.) And if you ask me, I don't know why CABs are priced so low, so I won't field that part of the argument. But like I said before, are you advocating Yonex should drive up prices for the hell of it...? (Since adding new technology might not necessarily improve performance, so what rationale should be used to justify a rise in prices?) What reasoning drove you to think that this is good for consumers? ------------- I'm pretty sure I didn't say that CAB30MS had top-of-the-line technology. I said it had advanced technology. It's shaft is the same as AT700, new color AT 700, new color AT500, AT500, MP99, MP100. Even NS9000 still has H.M Graphite which CAB30MS has. I was pretty sure my AT800OF had Ultimum TI as well, so I don't consider that technology to be so far back. If CAB 30MS is not even slightly advance, I don't think any racket that has its technology can be called advanced? (That includes most of your armortec series and the MP series, lol) --------------- I'm starting to be able to tell what you're aiming at. But that's why I'm telling to you to just say what you're hinting at. ISOs > CABs, yes? If that is your opinion, I humbly respect it for I am also a lover of both. (I still like CABs slightly more, lol) I don't really like seeing people going in circles just trying state a simple point or trying to corner people into a foregone conclusion using such tactics. :I And if we are going to continue answering your initial questions based on the assumption that CABs are absolutely superior to every racket, I will end my posts here for here for I do not share that opinion and do not wish to answer those questions under that pretext. And lastly I think we're losing sight of the original topic here, lol. Edit: And good points on the CAB30MS part, Silentheart. :I
xtc, your mathematical logic is not flawed, neither are philosophical and electrical logics. However, the problem lies in its improper application on the gerneral public consumers which ARE NOT logical subjects. People buying sport equips vary from age 10 to 70, all have different ingrained values and logic plus often than not are OVERRULED by emotion and primal instinct. Top executives and marketers know this and it's why big buisness exist and prosper. Have u learned fhis from high school economics? Can emotion and primal instinct be charted by graphs and figuers? As a hint and advice, if u want answers to most of your questions, just look at the automotive industry. Back to topic of cab vs iso repulsion, the extra punchiness is more than 1 -2% over iso frame. However, i cant give u an exact incremental repulsiveness because it is also depends on alot on other parameters like type of string, tension, racket length, etc. IMO tho, it is like more than 15%. Be careful here, it does not mean >15% gain in shuttle speed. I would say it is closer to being >15% less effort. Less effert in turn mean the player can concentrate more on his timing, angle, and stroke execution which in turn yield better control and accuracy. If u want to know why iso is more popular given what i have said about cab explosion, i repeat, just look at the car industry. I wish i had this type of informative forum when i was in high school...
Point being i feel that the supposedly 3-4% increase in power is not quite worth having a 33% larger sweetspot or w.e yonex says.
point being it is not extra 3-4%. Kwun and others would not gotten so excited if the explosion was only extra 3-4% The feedback i got is like ~15%+. Since u got A's in science (ie. labs) i presumed, u should 'experiment' a cab first before u 'theorize' a narrow rangle of 3-4%.
now that you mention it, i did try a cab, as a matter of fact i played with one today, i felt it really only gave 3-4% more OOPMH. Believe me the 15% you feel, is nothing more than an illusion, cause if it really gave you 15% oopmh don't you think fu hai feng would be using one, cause then he'd hit with 15% more speed
