MD Tactics vs very strong all round defensive pair

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by FMenard, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. FMenard

    FMenard New Member

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    Hi all,

    I wonder if anybody could help with tactics against a very strong, all-round defensive mens pair.

    My partner and I are an attacking pair, seasoned local league level. We are strong at the net, we attack the serve, we attack the net. Although we are not strong smashers, we will smash if theres a lift and try to win on the weak return...

    We prefer short, attacking rallies and fitness is not our strength!

    We played this brilliant mens pair who destroyed us! They were quick, very defensive, but "aggressive defensive". Every attacking shot was returned, and although not perfect, it was coming back, and fast.

    They were solid in return of smash, but also very quick on defending net shots.

    Basically, they were very casual, relaxed, everything came back, and most importantly everything was in. They seemed to win the rallies by waiting for us to make a mistake or run out of steam and get tired.

    When they lifted, our smashes were too easy for them to defend and we got tired.

    We are playing the return soon - i'm not asking for the impossible, but i would love to give them a good fight!

    Any advice on tactics?

    Thanks

    fred
     
  2. phili

    phili Regular Member

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    1. Improve your fitness
    2. Against defensive/counterattacking pairs it is best if you vary your attack. Especially sacrificing power for better placement seems to work.
    3. ...
    4. profit.
     
  3. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    Attack the weaker player in the combination, focusing on attacking their forehand side with your smash (most player's forehand smash defense is weaker and less accurate). The front court player should bias themselves to covering a cross court lift or drive.

    Basically, you want to play two against one half court.
     
  4. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Very skilful pair. Against such players, you need to be more controlled. From your description, you and your partner seem very quick to kill off points in a game. But these opponents are not your typical roll over and die opponents.

    You will have to alter your mindset about controlling a rally rather than winning it. Without seeing you play, there can be many different areas to alter. Smash direction, placement, speed and when to use it are very important.

    Frequently now, changing the speed of the game is very important. You definitely need to improve mid court pushes and subtle shots around the forecourt. To get good control, please examine your footwork, bounce and racquet preparation before each shot. Improving on that can make a significant improvement to your position and options of shots when you actually arrive at the shuttle. This in turn will help your confidence.

    Case example: I happened to watch an old men's doubles partner of mine having some struggles. His partner for this match was getting a bit frustrated but both couldn't analyse the problem. In this match, there were quite a few rallies. My friend wasn't doing well around the net and even after so many years of playing and tournament experience, he still had his racquet down when at the net. Just a little reminder to keep the racquet up can make a split second improvement to the match.
     
  5. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    To be honest, your opponents sound like a very experienced pair. Enjoy your return match!
     
  6. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Some players have very good hand skills, and could neutralize your smashes with ease. Note however that, smashes go to your opponents; they don't need to move their bodies much. Try to test them out if they could also move fast, with fast drops and attacking clears that oblige them to move, and test areas between the two of them. See if this may work better. See if they've habits (favorite shots/directions) when they counter-attacks.
     
    #6 raymond, Jan 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  7. Kikuhito Senshi

    Kikuhito Senshi Regular Member

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    As has been said, from your description they seem fitter and far more tactically experienced.

    Try mixing up the pace a little with drops to the middle and move them about a bit more. Play the spaces and not the players; what I mean by this is a lot of "local league" players instinct is to hit at their opponents so someone with good reactions and tactical awareness will exploit the weak tactics and have you running all over exposing your poor fitness. Add drop shots and the occasional fast attacking clear rather than trying to smash everything at them and get passed their defence.
     
  8. FMenard

    FMenard New Member

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    Thank you to everyone who contributed, i very much appreciate it.

    I think there's plenty of advice i can take to our next game:

    - changing speed of game
    - varying the attack
    - control the rally
    - play in the spaces, in between the two
    - smash to the forehand defense
    - be patient!

    longer term:

    - fitness
    - footwork, bounce
    - defensive game
    - adapt our style of play when our "default setting" just doesn't work!

    I now feel I've got things to try for the return game!

    fred
     
  9. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Great advice from everyone so far. A word of advice from me. If your "big" power smashes are not doing much, then ensure to try the following:

    When you smash, make sure you do some full power smashes at chest/face height. It makes it very difficult to play any shot other than a drive or push, which makes it very difficult for them to get it away from your partner who waits at the net. Keep up the pressure on them at this height - the flatter smashes are difficult to get away from yourself, so make them suffer and don't let up. Mix these flatter smashes at full power with steeper ones at 3/4 power and you will be difficult to handle.

    If smashes just are not working, then you can be sure that drop shots will not work. Why? Because they are not afraid of your smash and can hence just walk forwards and attack your drop shots without fear of your smash. Remember that an attacking clear does the same thing as a big smash - it keeps them back, it keeps them unsure and it keeps them guessing! Mix fast drops with punch clears and you will probably expose some weaknesses in their defence. When you punch clear, stay in the attacking formation and wait for a weak reply. When you get a weak reply, hit the full power flat smash, then the steeper smash, then the drop shot, just to keep them confused... but this all hinges on your keeping them guessing. USE THE PUNCH CLEAR!

    Good luck. Sounds like a tough game.

    If I were in your shoes, I would use the tactics I just described combined with endless clearing battles where I let them attack me. I am not afraid.
     
  10. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Would love to watch a video of your next match, if you could get it, and don't mind uploading it.
     
  11. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    One tactic I like to use...

    Only works against 2 right handers or 2 left handers

    Put it twice to forehand of the person who's forehand is near the tram lines (so the person on the left as you're facing them), and then the next one between the two players.

    You play it twice because you actually want that person to try and take it on the backhand, or at least move to throw off their partner.

    Another one, but I'm not sure how well it'll work against these particular opponents.

    Do a bad lift over the front player. By a bad lift, I mean don't even put it to the doubles line. This generally works well when the front player is near the middle of the net.

    The front player won't want to move back to take the shot, but the rear court player has to move forward, and even then they don't have much space to work with to take the shuttle.

    The lift wants to be high enough that the front player can't take it from their current position, but not so high that they have a chance to realize what you've done.

    Don't expect these to work all the time. They're some crafty little bits I picked up that can throw some players off. If you use them too often, they'll anticipate them.
     
  12. sebZeroToHeroes

    sebZeroToHeroes Regular Member

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    That's very good advice. It's actually very difficult to properly defend against smashes with varying heights. The key thing is not to become too predictable, so the "mix" part is important.
    And as usual, don't forget to include so drops in the mix to force your opponents to stay up the court (otherwise your "flat" smashes will lose effectiveness).

    Another important point is to keep the attack. It's tempting when the opposite defense is too strong to try and throw clears in the mix, but it's usually a bad idea.

    Apart from that, as others have suggested, feel free to upload a video of the next game, so we can provide more focused advice :)
     
  13. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

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    can you play the defensive game and make them attack? do that by lifting and clearing to the backline either straight or cross

    Check their game, do they prefer smashing your lifts and clears or clear them back? do be prepared for a repeated clearing battle. then mix some dropshots after >5 cycles of clearing

    Usually defensive pairs aren't good at attacking and moving around the court when in attacking.

    try to move them from their comfort zone.
     
  14. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    I am always surprised when someone gives this advice. Would you mind explaining it?

    Unless they are professional players (I don't play professionally...), opponents are normally weak in at least one of several areas e.g. footwork to the back when expecting a smash is weak, or smash from the back line with a vertically falling shuttle is poor quality. With those weaknesses in mind, I do not understand why people talk about not giving away the attack.

    This advice, in my view, creates a "fear" of your opponent. But why be afraid? You know how to defend! So defend! Turn the defence into an attack for yourself. People who avoid lifting ALSO avoid moving their opponent... which is ridiculous. How are you going to beat any opponent without making him move?

    Here is the scenario I imagine:
    They lift to me and I smash.
    They get it back with high defence so they are "too strong" defensively for me.
    I give them a high lift to the back line.
    They can't smash such a good lift so they play a drop shot.
    I lift the drop shot straight back to where they are stood at the back.
    They decide to give smashing a go.
    They smash straight at me.
    I drive the shuttle back at them and move forwards to the net.
    They play a weak lift or a block.
    Me or my partner attacks that shot off a weak lift or a net kill opportunity.

    So, in the above scenario, I "gave away" the attack... but it only did good things for me:
    1. makes them move all the way to the back line (a terrible position for them)
    2. makes them smash (a tactically bad choice from the back line)

    I gain the upper hand in the rally. It was my lift that did that to them.

    In my view, people don't lift enough! The danger is in never attacking. Thats a bad situation to be in.
     
  15. sebZeroToHeroes

    sebZeroToHeroes Regular Member

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    It may depend on the level of play then. But I expect that if you're able to do an aggressive clear (ie a clear that can put your opponent off position, and not just a high clear) from a smashing position, you're at a level where going to the back / smashing a high shuttle is not a big issue.

    Apart from that, clearing is giving the opportunity to your opponent to attack back. Keeping the attack on the opposite forces your opponent to lift the shuttle or do a net play, giving you an opportunity to intercept or attack at the net.

    We're talking doubles, right?
    You can move your opponent well enough by varying smash and drops, and the height / speed of your shots as well as the sides.
    I'm not saying you should never make an offensive clear when you're on the attack, but you should save it for when your opponent is anticipating you at the front.

    True, if your opponents have trouble from the back, then clearing is a good option. In such cases, clearing could even be your default shot.
    Here I was assuming we were talking about strong, all-around opponents. So I definitely wouldn't expect them to be weak at the back.

    I actually speak for experience. For a long time, I was playing doubles like I was playing singles - healthy mix of clears and attacks, moving the opponent around. And I was constantly facing a wall I couldn't pass.
    At some point I started to play more offensively. Attack when you can, don't give the attack back. You're two on your side of the court, so you don't have to worry about covering your court as much as in singles.
    This was game-changing for me, and the point at which I started to like doubles.
     
  16. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    A big part of the game is to have strokes that look similar. The same advice for the smashes goes to drop shots, change the pace and direction.

    The thing that pushed my game up much more was changing the pace. One pace, one pace then suddenly quicken my footwork to an opportunity and play a fast shot.


    I also look for opportunities to predict the shot. e.g. if you play a high clear that goes to the backlines, the opponent is not going to give a hard smash. So, I edge into the net and take the net area. I only rush the net area just before the opponent hits the shot because his eyes are on the shuttle (not on you) and he cannot change his choice of shot so late (unless he's really good). I have won many, many points on netkills with this.
     
  17. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Thanks for your explanation. It makes sense given your experience. However, I do not think it is true. Certainly your description of "a healthy mix of clears and attacks" is not the correct way to play doubles. "Attack when you can" should be replaced by "attack when there is a good opportunity to put pressure on your opponent".

    It seems from your responses to me that you would only consider lifting the shuttle if the opponent you play against is weak from the back. However, if you play against strong opponents, you will quickly get in trouble. You cannot possibly attack everything because they will quickly get you out of position and you cannot avoid lifting to someone strong. So how do you beat two strong opponents, who do not appear to have any weaknesses? That I what I am talking about.

    Notice the two things I said are relevant at every level:
    1. makes them move all the way to the back line (a terrible position for them)
    2. makes them smash (a tactically bad choice from the back line)

    This is regardless of how well they can smash. If they have a great smash, or a really bad smash, both of these things are still true. Smashing from the back line is a bad choice because it will not be a winner (not even professionals can smash from the back line and win a point), and unlike what you have said, it will NOT force me to lift or play net. I will play a drive straight down the tramline or a cross court block depending on where the opposing net player is standing.

    So if I only do smashes and drops at them, I will be moved around and exhausted because they have great skills. Similarly, if they only attack me, I will move them around and exhaust them because I have great skills. So you see, lifting and attacking are not what you describe. It is not a case of whoever is smashing or dropping wins the rallies. It is often a case of whoever can force the first mistake will get a short lift, which they can then attack and try to win the rally. Sometimes, the only way to force a mistake is to move your opponent so his feet are outside the back of the court, and then make him have to run a long way for the next shot. This doesn't work against every opponent, but works against most that I have ever played - nobody likes to smash from the back line.

    Anyway. Good to have these discussions! A long time ago I used to think that attacking was everything. As I improved, my opinion changed a lot. Now I view it as creating pressure to force a mistake. This sometimes means lots of attack, and sometimes means very patient defence. Whatever it takes to beat my opponent!
     
  18. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Exactly! At a high level or play where everyone is skillful, these tactics you describe start to happen. The guy on the other side from you will then start to fake a drop or smash, but punch a clear over your head that your partner cannot deal with. Then you will change your tactics... Then he will change his etc. etc.

    Badminton is fun :)
     
  19. sebZeroToHeroes

    sebZeroToHeroes Regular Member

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    Totally agree. I find it applies slightly differently between singles and doubles though - I feel that doubles are more about varying the pace in attack, ie mix of slow / quick drops and smash heights, playing in the "divorce zones" (I don't know the English term - I mean when opposing players are front / back, the zones that are middle of the court, where it's a bit awkward for either player to get it), while singles are really about pace of play.

    Yup, reading your opponent is definitely something to do if you're able to :) I find there is a thin line between getting ready for specific shots and outright anticipating them. I find the latter a bit risky, because as you say when you start getting better you'll face players who are really good at reading your play and masking their shots.

    More than "attack when you can", I would say "give the attack back when you don't have any better choice". This also means playing net shots, mid-court drives or flat shots which are not outright attacking shots, but prevent the opponent from really taking the attack in the game.

    When you're defending obviously you should lift, but I think we all agree on that and that's not really the question here :)

    I agree, I may have been too categorical. There are definitely positions where you shouldn't attack, and in this case lifting / clearing is the correct move.
    I was supposing that you were in a good attacking position, or at least in a position where your opponent does not put pressure, and you had to choose whether to clear / lift or keep the shuttle low (smash, drops, net shots, "divorce zone" drives (really, what's the proper term?)).

    Agree that they won't necessarily smash from far back. However, this gives them a lot of offensive options - offensive clear, smash, drop. And in all these cases, they will be on the attack and ready for a short block or drive. Not saying that they will score the point, but they'll definitely be the ones putting pressure.

    Agree - I didn't mean "attack when you can" but "don't lift / clear when you have other options". You can keep the attack with well-placed shots between the players, playing at the net, and so on.

    Totally agree. Creating pressure is the key, and I think we agree on that. I just find that above a certain level, clearing when you're in attacking position doesn't achieve that anymore.

    And glad to have these discussions too, it's been a long time :)
     
  20. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Thanks for giving your insight. I have highlighted the areas where I think my experience of playing does not match yours.

    Firstly, I am exactly talking about the situation where I am in position where I could play any shot and I choose to play an attacking clear, not a smash. If I have a short lift, then I will probably attack... but not always (mixed doubles is a good example of this). You can gain a psychological edge if you beat your opponent with clears as well as all other shots - which is fun :)

    Them attacking does not mean they are putting pressure on me. It means they are trying, and it depends how good my defence is compared to their attack as to whether they succeed. And against most people, my defence is better than their attack. But perhaps not everyone has this skill set. I think this is the area where we disagree - attacking is not putting pressure on your opponents unless your attack is effective. And against a good defence, it may not be enough to just attack.

    We agree about creating pressure. Thats the key. However, I can still create pressure with a well timed attacking clear, and against the best defensive players I play against, it is necessary to make them twist and turn in their defence. If I did not mix up the pace of my shots, the angle of my smashes, and make use of clears, I would not be able to break down their defences.

    But then again, if I had a professional level of power in my smash, perhaps I would feel differently. But you have to work with the skills you have!
     

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