Should I weight train?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by dontmakeme, Nov 3, 2015.

  1. dontmakeme

    dontmakeme Regular Member

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    Hello BCer's,

    I have been seeing many posts about players wanting to train with weights.
    I have created this post to express my opinion on weight training and to hear back from Badminton Central.

    Weight training is good for badminton players. I believe that weight training is important for players to build up strength and endurance. However, I do believe that spending too much time building strength and endurance will not make your badminton better.

    Players should build strength and endurance to a certain degree. Enough endurance (varies depending on goals) to play certain amounts of games without fatigue. Enough strength to move around the court being able to do strength required shots, example, lunging and jumping.

    Afterwards I would suggest players to actually focus on strengthening muscles and stretching that assist in injury protection, posture, structural integrity. These muscles include the rotator cuff, posterior deltoid, hip, glutes, ankle, achilles, back muscles, obliques, and core muscles. These muscles are normally ignored even though they are huge in allowing your body to transfer energy.

    What most players would start with... which I think are wrong are : chest muscle, bicep, tricep, shoulder muscle, traps, calves, and legs. These muscles are important ,but if you strengthen these muscles you will not be able to operate your other muscles. Because your muscles will be too tight to function. In which case you will lose power, flexibility, and overall transfer of energy.

    Even after weight training, I still believe that ,after the base level of strength and endurance, you should practice on technique. It is unlikely that recreational players have their technique mastered.

    I would recommend new players, recreational players, and kind of competitive players to prioritize in order:
    1. Learn the technique behind all aspects (movement, posture, core strength, and hitting)
    2. Increase your endurance for movement (cardiovascular running, doing lunges, jumping, skipping rope, swinging)
    3. Strengthen to a sufficient level such that you can do all the techniques properly. (lunge, jump smash, swings, moving around court, etc).
    4. Strengthen and stretch the assisting muscles (back, glutes, hip, IT band, rotator cuff, posterior deltoid, ankle, etc)
    5. Lastly build strength or endurance for desired muscle groups for certain actions (legs for higher jump smash, legs for heavy deep lunges, leg power for those jumps from back court to front court, arm for powerful smashing, core muscles for super stability, etc (crazy lin dan dives)).

    Thanks
     
    #1 dontmakeme, Nov 3, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  2. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Errr.. Mmm..

    So I just started hitting the gym. 2 weeks ago. I never used the gym prior to this. Straight away I can sprint on their exercise bikes at max resistance, I can max out most of their leg machines, and I can leg press double my body weight. Keep in mind that at present, I'm 64kg (6' tall), and some of those machines involving curling 60kg with your legs. Prior to this, everything I did was on the badminton court.

    The point of hitting the gym is to better equip yourself to make shots, but as you rightly point out, you need the shot in the first place. However, you cannot ignore that more powerful and efficient muscles for movement, putting you in a better position to take a shot, doesn't help your game. It very much does help your game. You'll get to the smash that bit earlier, you'll jump that bit higher, you'll recover that bit faster.

    This is coming from the guy that learned to replay with his other arm, you don't perceive how much you need them until you feel a substantial difference like I have. When I started relearning left handed, my right was much, much stronger. To begin with, going to my left, I felt fatigue and pain in many of these places because I didn't have the strength there.

    In response to muscles you don't think are important:
    Biceps, triceps, and traps, they're important still. You don't need to go crazy on them. You do build muscle here, but it's not about bulk in these spots. It's about having endurance muscles strong enough for the job.

    Chest/shoulder muscles; you underestimate them. You would be surprised how much of the force behind a shot is generated from turning the trunk, and using the muscle in your chest and shoulder. The acceleration comes from the forearm, but a lot of the force comes the chest and shoulder. That 'squeezing your arms together' motion.

    Calves/legs; are you crazy? As I said, I didn't hit the gym until a couple of weeks ago so everything I had was from training 10-20 hours on court every week. My calves are bloody enormous. My quads are a bit lacking, in my opinion, which is part of why I started hitting the gym. Your calves substantially accelerate your movement, especially into the rear court, and your quads/upper legs improve your recovery speed because this part of the muscle is what supports you as you land, or as you push off.

    With regards to your scheme:
    Why break it down? There's a simple way to improve all of these things at the same time, and that's practice, practice, practice.

    You should always warm up for your sessions by doing some cardiovascular anyway. Running, side steps, lunges, some dynamic stretches etc. just to avoid injury. Similarly, you should cool down from your sessions properly by doing static stretches to avoid lactic acid build up or muscle knotting.

    A great way to build up all areas of the legs you need for badminton is super simple; footwork drills. You have Peter Ramussen's demonstration, where he says that players should just get into a flow and a rhythm. This is good to start with, focus on the technique behind the footwork before worrying too much about length. As you get more confident, increase the length, show that you can touch the net with your racket, or take a smash from the backline.

    When you're doing footwork drills, you shouldn't really need to do them for more than 3 minutes at a time. The average badminton rally doesn't last very long.

    What I do these days:
    I've reduced my on-court play time by a few hours a week. Instead I now do 2-3 hours of footwork drills, and hit the gym 2-3 times a week. I do everything on my legs, back, and shoulders. For building my arm strength and pronation, I use a weighted racket and practice dry swings, including defense, lift, drive, and overhead.

    Really, the best way to build your body for the sport, is just to do exercises similar to the sport. Eventually you need to lift weights to do that, because it'd be reckless to push yourself so far into a lunge you're effectively lifting your entire body weight to do achieve the weight needed to exercise the muscle. Or you get the idea. Go as far as natural will take you, but I think you are vastly devaluing how important physical fitness is for badminton.
     
    #2 Charlie-SWUK, Nov 3, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  3. dontmakeme

    dontmakeme Regular Member

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    I am not devaluing physical fitness. You must have sufficient physical fitness to play this sport. Learn the technical aspect of the game. Get your body fit enough to perform the technical shots. Afterwards apply strength training to the specific areas to generate maximize efficiency of your body and technical ability.

    Eg. I want a stronger smash.
    Learn the proper technique (grip, swing, rotation, posture, footwork, legwork, transfer of energy).
    Get the endurance + strength to actually perform the technique
    After mastering the technique, go ahead and increase the endurance + strength to maximize your body's potential.

    You would not tell a person to learn the smash by:
    Teach a person general smash (use your wrist or some other vague technique).
    Tell the person if they want more power go strength training by strengthening your bicep, tricep, forearm, chest, legs, shoulder and calves.
    Now go perform that smash many times.
    Result = inefficient smash, waste of time, possible injury, overworked muscles, tight muscles, etc.

    I acknowledge that training your muscles will give you stronger shots, but trained improperly, by training only a group of muscles, will lead to overworked muscles and tight muscles.
    Overworked muscles are antagonist muscles that are not strengthened therefore they get tight and lose function. Because these antagonist muscles lose function the main muscle group becomes tight.

    For example, if you work out your chest (main muscle group) only and not your back muscles (antagonist muscles). Then you will have muscle imbalance and your shoulders/posture will lean forward.

    I recommend that players should get sufficient strong muscle groups like chest, bicep, core, tricep, traps, shoulder, and calves. But to also remember to strengthen their antagonist muscles (assist muscles) such as back, glutes, rotator cuff, hip, quads, hamstring, and etc.

    That way you have a strong body and strong assist muscles to maintain your body's posture and structure.
     
    #3 dontmakeme, Nov 3, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  4. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    It would be good if you could shed some light on your credential (e.g. are you are professional players, a fitness trainer etc.), so people here have a better idea what they're reading.
     
  5. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Daaaaam. You practically invisible. When I was young and fit doing lots of cardio and football I was never under 74kg and I'm 5'11'' / 180cm
     
    #5 amleto, Nov 4, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  6. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    And now consider I leg press 130 :D
     
  7. dontmakeme

    dontmakeme Regular Member

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    I am a badminton player?

    I am not a professional player or a fitness instructor.

    However I do my research on fitness, badminton, and whatever else I do.
    I have been coached before, I am currently being coached.
    I am a university student who does his own research as well.
    I learn from experts in fitness, physiotherapy, and badminton players.
     
    #7 dontmakeme, Nov 4, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  8. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Why do you suggest building the 'assisting' muscles rather than the main muscles first?

    Why do you assume people would end up 'too tight to function'?

    Why do you assume muscle strength would dictate flexibility?

    Why do you assume this flexibility would be compromised so suddenly, when the reality is it takes a long time to build both muscle and flexibility?

    Could you further elaborate on how building strong 'assisting' muscles improves energy transfer?

    Do points 1 and 3 not conflict with each other? How can someone execute a technique properly when they lack the physicality to do so?

    What level of player is your coach? (Or have they been, if your coach is now older)
     
  9. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Can't deny it's impressive.
    Do you squat or dead lift?
     
  10. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Well, I've only just started doing anything in the gym at all. 130 is pretty much my baseline rep max. I do 2 sets of 10 reps at 90. I do squats and lunges, but like I said I've only just started using the gym, I'm very cautious with the free weights at the moment. I don't like using them at all without having someone to spot me.

    My upper back isn't that strong, so for now I'm only doing 30-40kg of squats/lunges, just to make sure I don't overdo anything (.. or drop the weights..). But I can do those pretty quickly and dynamically.
     
  11. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    shouldn't need spotting for squats since the rack should have safety bars.
     
  12. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I had some problems with tennis elbow and a meniscus injury. I wasn't getting quite right and visited the physio.

    The physio took a whole body approach and diagnosed assymmetry in my muscles plus some inadequate stretching. So I had to do more exercises on my left (non-dominant side) and muscles strengthening on the left side. I keep quite an open mind on the issue.

    The physio also said I had specific points where my muscles where quite tight. Initially I didn't believe her but when she pressed on certain points, they bloody hurt whereas the other side didn't hurt at all. After some treatment sessions, I did feel better. My physio is a sports physio and I think she is pretty good - qualified in Australia where they have a strong background in sports.

    Charlie, since you are right side dominant but switched to left hand, I would expect your muscles to be quite balanced compared to ordinary people. This may actually work to some advantage in injury prevention.
     
    #12 Cheung, Nov 4, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  13. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Maybe, I also do rallies on both hands to keep my right sharp. Asymmetry seems like a pretty good reason to hit the gym, in my eyes. You'll get a much better overall development if you use the gym.

    Some of your issues could've been prevented with good warming up and cooling down too! Don't be afraid of your after-practice static stretches, they won't hurt much :D

    I also rub my muscles out on a regular basis to help remove lactate. As long as you aren't too rough and you work the muscle evenly and well, it won't do you much harm.
     
  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I think badminton players generally don't stretch very well. The best stretching was from my training in karate. Very comprehensive and I learnt more about stretching techniques there than from badminton.
     
  15. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Mine was from taekwondo, and I pass that knowledge onto our juniors to make sure they stretch well. Come to think of it, I don't really see anyone else doing stretches for badminton. Maybe that's a big hole in the development process here.
     
  16. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    +1

    I also learned to stretch properly from taekwondo
     
  17. Kennyb

    Kennyb Regular Member

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    +1 too.

    My cousin is a sports physio and had a looked at my shoulder when I told him I was getting some pain over the last few weeks. He found that my rotator cuff was really weak which caused it.

    Now he's my personal trainer (also qualified) and is helping improve my well being and performance on the court, which is actually starting to show.

    The workout my cousin has devised is like this:
    • First stage - reset and rebuild the motor skills and posture
    • Second stage - Body strengthening and conditioning
    • Third stage - Explosive training

    Currently I'm still in second stage but already doing some explosive training, like dead-lifting and fast back squat/split squat.

    Everyone is too eager to get onto the court to play as time is valuable these days.

    Before, I use to do various stretches in order to hit every aspect of my body but now my cousin taught me to do "The World's Greatest Stretch" as it's more effective.
     
    #17 Kennyb, Nov 5, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  18. dontmakeme

    dontmakeme Regular Member

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    Why do you suggest building the 'assisting' muscles rather than the main muscles first?
    - your main muscles will develop from purely playing.
    - having stronger main muscles first will create more stress for assisting muscles
    - if you train them both that is fine, but if you train only one muscle group (the main muscles) then you will have imbalance
    -however I do still suggest that you need a sufficient level of strength and fitness in all areas!

    Why do you assume people would end up 'too tight to function'?
    -because its for new,recreational, and low competitve players
    - people here, community centres are not properly trained, not professionals, and do not have a professional coach
    - They are not too tight to function (like walk....) but rather they are unable to hit at a potential level due to tightness

    Why do you assume muscle strength would dictate flexibility?
    -muscle strength does not dictate flexibility (depends on genetics and environment)
    -adding more muscle strength (stress) develops tension in muscles
    -muscle balance and stretching leads to good flexibility and healthy muscles

    Why do you assume this flexibility would be compromised so suddenly, when the reality is it takes a long time to build both muscle and flexibility?
    - flexibility will not suddenly get to potential flexibility, but because this is for new, recreational, and lower competitive level, I believe most people do not stretch or warm up
    -both flexibility and muscle need to be increased together, but if i had to choose I would say having healthy flexible and sufficient strength muscles are more important in badminton than having strong muscles and tight muscles

    Could you further elaborate on how building strong 'assisting' muscles improves energy transfer?
    For example, Smashing
    Assisting muscle = Back muscles, posterior deltoid (their are more)
    Main muscle group = Chest, Shoulder, Arm

    For a powerful smash, you want to be in the most biomechanical posture. To maintain a good posture you need to use back muscles to keep your back straight.
    To give yourself the maximum range of motion for the smash you have to load up your posterior delt by pulling it back. When you have stored potential energy with back and posterior deltoid, you then make your swing forward. Where you use your chest muscles, shoulder, and arm.

    If you want to have good shots you need a good posture, in which case your back should always be straight. Your back muscles are tired from holding your back straight all the time. Now by strengthening your chest EVEN more you have now added even more stress on your back muscles eventually leading to back muscles to lose function due to tightness of your back muscles. Tight back muscle then leads to tight chest muscles, because your posture is lost. Now play badminton for many hours in poor posture and you lose power.

    Do points 1 and 3 not conflict with each other? How can someone execute a technique properly when they lack the physicality to do so?

    Point 1 and 3 do conflict. I recommend it as priority. You should prioritize learning technique.
    Eg. Learning the jump smash
    The proper jump smash is "xyz_secret"
    You practice it a few times, and you run out of energy.
    You now go and work on your cardio, but remember the technique.

    Do not learn a jump smash and then assume it is your physical ability preventing you from making a stronger smash. There is always going to be some little tweak at new,recreational, to lower competitive level. Alot of the problems that come are generally poor biomechanics. Some professionals showed me their smashes, telling me its more about technique rather than strength.

    What level of player is your coach? (Or have they been, if your coach is now older)
    He was a national player of Canada
    He was trained by coaches from Malaysia
    He is very passionate about badminton
     
    #18 dontmakeme, Nov 5, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  19. dontmakeme

    dontmakeme Regular Member

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    You see how your upper back isn't strong. Your upper back is an assisting muscle during the squat, even though the main groups would be considered, your legs and your bum. If your back was strong enough, you would be able to lift heavier because you can hold your posture. Once your back is strong enough, you can then train your legs optimally.
     
    #19 dontmakeme, Nov 5, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  20. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Honestly, the things you're saying, seem like the most backward and inane way to train.

    What you're suggesting is that weak assisting muscles leads to tightness, and therefore you should train assisting muscles before your main muscles. All that's going to do is create the same situation in the opposite direction, the 'assisting' muscles will inhibit your movement.

    Secondly, building muscle and stretching is entirely different, and they are not isolated. Not stretching is what'll make you tight, not having muscle.

    Thirdly, as mentioned above, it's actually more likely to be your tendons and ligaments that keep you tight and inflexible. Not really muscle. You only get flexibility in ligaments and tendons through stretching.

    Fourthly, you make it sound like practicing technique and building strength are again, isolated. There is no reason a player cannot do both.

    Fifth, only playing and practicing on court will lead you to asymmetrical muscle patterns as Cheung has found. For example, my calves are incredibly strong, but my quads are comparatively weak.

    Sixth, many activities used to improve physicality can be done alone. Practicing on court, for anything but dry swings and footwork, you really need someone else. Someone else is not always available.

    Seventh, in the example about my upper back - what part of playing badminton would have strengthened that? Given I've only just started using the gym, and prior to this all of my training was done on court, it is evident that to build a strong, even build you need to use equipment.

    Eighth, in your example of smashing - if you build up the 'assisting' muscles before the main muscles, how would someone use the chest contraction to hit? Their back would provide more resistance than their chest could pull, resulting in a very slow swing.

    I'm sorry but what you've outlined in this thread isn't a more holistic solution to building capability. You're just replacing one wrong with another. You're telling people to focus on maybe 2 things, when there are another 3 more that are just as important. And yeah, you don't realize how much of a deficit there is in the muscles of people new to the game; take it from someone that relearned to play with their other hand. If you don't do some strength exercises off of the court, it takes a long, long time to build that strength from swinging 90 grams of carbon and a bit of nylon.

    And the thing is, stuff like cardiovascular movements that aren't footwork drills, aren't even going to improve your endurance that much. Ironically, you work a set of specific muscle groups, which means that when you transition to badminton specific movements (like lunges, jumps) you'll find that other parts of your muscle are too weak.

    Your muscles are only as strong as the weakest link. If your ligaments and tendons are too tight because you didn't stretch, that's no good. If you focused on cardio and built the wrong muscle groups, that's no good. If you only do badminton and your muscles begin to imbalance because you have an asymmetrical pattern, and you injure yourself as a result, that's no good. As I said a few lines ago, I think you're trying to replace bad ideas with equally bad ideas.
     

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