This is a problem in MD that I always deal with and makes me frustated because I am always told I am wrong and the opponent gets a point. The problem is with my positioning and rotation and sometimes my choice of shots. This happens with almost everyone I play with. This is the situation and what we argue: 1. I hit down at every chance after a flick serve, my partner stand at the side then the opponent block it to the net, then they got the point, my partner then argues that I should've played a clear instead while I argue he should've been at the front. 2. The opponent clear to my rear side, I move back and smash, my partner is still at the side, the opponent block to the net, and they got the point. my partner then argues that I should've played a clear instead while I argue he should've been at the front. 3. I am in an unfavorable position and clear, move to the side, my partner goes to the front and crouch his body, then our opponent smash to the empty side and got the point, my partner then argues that I should've been at the middle while I argue he should've been at the side. 4. From a side by side position, I managed to do a straight block to the net, I then move forward anticipating a netshot, my partner is still at the side, my opponent then do a straight lift to my rear, I don't move back, my partner is still at the side, the opponents get the point. my partner then argues that I should've move back while I argue he should've covered the rear as I go to the front. The time we don't have a debate is when the opponent doesn't get the point, which usually involves some luck and me scrambling to reach the shuttle, where my partner then goes "good, just like that, it's yours" which I can only give a surprised look in exchange. sometimes it becomes unbeareble and frustating so it makes me stop the play by hitting the shuttle out or into the net. Funnily enough, my partner seems angry if I copy him, especially moving to the front after a clear. its kind of a " Hey, Why don't you try covering the whole court by yourself while I just duck around at the front court" so...the bottom line is, what should I do?. It's kind of pointless to learn the basic front-rear and side by side formation and how to apply it only to get a partner who doesn't apply it,
1. I agree with you. I think it's your partner's responsibility to cover the block to the net. Not sure why he thinks a clear is the proper reply to a flick serve. Depending on the quality of the flick serve, your momentum is already moving back. Makes sense to me that it would save you recovery time to stay and cover the back. I use this strategy (flick serve) to push my opponent who is weaker in the back away from the net. 2. I agree with you. I am starting to notice a pattern here... Not sure if you can win in MD's by clearing when you're not under pressure. 3. Agree with you. Seems to me your partner is playing a brand of Bizarro badminton. He's doing everything backwards. Why would he move to the front when he sees you are under pressure and clears? Isn't it a basic tenet in doubles that when the shuttle is high to your opponent, you need to get to a defensive position (side by side)? 4. I think you're right on this situation as well. (Maybe we should play together?) I think the principle is the player who plays the shot has the initiative since he knows what shot he just hit and is in the best position to judge how to follow up. By you moving to the net after hitting a block, your partner should realize that you're committing to the front and should start moving back to cover you. It's almost an automatic move (block to the net, follow up, partner takes rear). I've seen this sequence countless number of time on Youtube. I don't recall seeing a national player block a low shot to the net (which means for a split second his side has the advantage) and then move back and not pressure the net. At the risk of being obnoxious, I am not sure what is there to debate. You are correct in all the situations you've raised, at least in my opinion. Have you try to explain the merits and logic of your choice of movement in those scenarios? I am curious to hear his justifications for his play. How is your partner's footwork by the way? I am wondering if these are just excuses for covering up lack of ability? In other words, I wonder if the issues you're having with your partner is due to lack of physical ability or it's just because you guys are on different pages? PS: I just reread your post and realize THIS HAPPENS TO YOU WITH EVERYONE YOU PLAY WITH?!!! And since you play in Indonesia, I am starting to wonder if I've been doing it wrong...
I think you're doing the right thing on every point you've made. I would've positioned just like that. Maybe change partner? What I've noticed, is that when I play with older players most of them like to play a defensive/counter-attacking type of game. They are not fast enough to cover the replies when you go full out attack. Maybe your partner prefers this type of game as well, since he always wants you to play clears.
I don't think I can change partners when almost everyone are like that. Training my partner and introducing the correct way is more viable. and I succeed in some extent for some beginners that I partnered. Yes, sometimes it's like that, but many of the young ones also play like that. and for a counter attacking game, at least we should be side by side when defending, not front back. the logic they use is just like what Lee jong bak explained in his video about doubles positioning: www.youtube.com/watch?v=k__HuDs_2hE and it becomes a useless debate Their footwork isn't good, there is no proper footwork. but i got to admit their shots are good, especially the deception shots and net play. Just a exaggeration, not everybody plays like that, but at intermediates, many play like that, for beginners, they are just statues at the front court. I think it's just many players at intermediates identify themselves as a back player or front player so they don't know the rotation concept. Incidentally, players that I'm suitable with tend to be all round and fast feet players. I really don't know about it. I must also admit I'm thinking the same thing, are the teachings I got from Gollum, LJB and zhao Jianhua are wrong. because the majority of people say I am wrong, only a minority say what I am doing is right.
Oh I see. Just curious, assuming you are also at the intermediate-level, how do you do against players such as your current partner when you team up with someone that has the same idea of rotation as yourself?
I can sympathize. I have played with an (older) experienced club player, and he, more than once, expressed disgust at me replying high clears with drop shots. His rationale was, there's no way for him to know when I would clear or drop, won't be in time to move from side to cover front, so he's more comfortable covering only his side. But it was obvious to me that when I take the opponent's clear, he should think "attack" and move to the front; if I happen to reply with a clear then he should move back to his side. Guess he's just lazy. Another time I played with a friend. See sometimes I have this problem of not following through with my net shots, because I often think in "singles" and forget I have a partner. So he compensated me by moving from the back to the front to take the opponents' net reply to my net shots, and split seconds later I realized my mistake and we both rushed to the net, leaving the back all empty. I've asked him not to, let me get in the habit of doing the right thing, and he just argued forgetting about "rules" and compensating me. No dice.
I wonder if this is a common problem. I've had similar situations where someone new will either ask me or tell me where I should play. My response is usually (if they ask) "that depends". Come to think of it, whenever I have this conversation before the match, we have a lot of breakdowns similar to the ones you've described in your original post.
Good. This confirms that your concept of rotation is valid. Have you noticed if the other team also have similar breakdowns in court coverage or maybe what they are doing is just different but equally valid?
Just like me describe the most common situation I encounter as I can't answer your question validly: 1. If we use a lift/clear to the back when they are on a side by side position , unless it's really high and slow , they will still be side by side and will usually hit a clear again instead of hitting it down. 2. Hit a clear to the middle at the back when they are side by side, they struggle to get it and hit a clear, now their formation is front-back and should be side by side again after hitting a clear, but they don't, and just smash to the sideline of midcourt. gets a point or a loose return that is easily killed off the case is, they really hit so many clears even when it should be hit down, and struggle to change quickly from side-side to front-back
Sadly, most of recreational players do not care about footwork nor position. As long as the bird flies, it makes them happy. Look the bright side, your racket is still alive by the end of game.
1. I remembered since years ago my first coach told me many club players didn't do their rotation right, when their partner received flick serve. The proper response for receiver's partner should be to move in tandem with the receiver, covering the front court, rather than waiting till a reply is played then move. So the net result is they either lose the attack or a point out-right. 2. Same thing here. Your partner should move in tandem with your movement, not after he figures out what you're gonna play. 3. Now, I'm beginning to wonder if you have all the fun(ny) partners... 4. You're correct here as well, provided your rushing forward is immediate (no delay). If you're late, it could be confusing, and you could be flicked. So what should you do? You may demonstrate to them how you could earn points from them in their mistakes. E.g. simplest one to implement is #2. Instead of partnering with these people, play against them, knowing all their bad responses.
Show him some videos of professional players in action and point out that you don't constantly clear in MD and you need to rotate. The most depressing thing is when a new partner says do you play front and back or sides.
[MENTION=54]raymond[/MENTION], Maybe because it's like this. Here, there is a clear distinction of people who train properly badminton in clubs and people who learn by themselves by playing. so there's a clear distinction in technique. ofcourse I'm not good enough to play against club players who just use me as a sandbag for their smashes and deceive me to go the wrong way by their crazy deception. So it's that I play with players who learn autodidactily.
I have read most of the posts and replies, but I would like to give you a few pointers myself. The big and obvious thing is: you are playing with untrained intermediate players who do not play the game to a high standard. So why should you feel like you should take advice from them? Regarding your points: 1. In theory you are correct. However, I would personally be going back, hitting the smash and I would be expected to come forwards and cover the net afterwards if necessary - my smash is not at the back of the court, and I always smash in good balance, so its easy for me to take one step forwards and attack the net if they play a block (I normally come forwards looking for it anyway). In this way, my partner can cover the other side aggressively - its a form of sides attacking. So there should not be an argument - they should cover the net if you can't. However, you should be able to. So its your fault as well - you need to get faster. 2. You should not be arguing. Go back and hit the smash and then play the rally. If your partner does not cover the net, then he is wrong. However, you should be fast enough to hit the smash and come forwards and cover your side (i.e. you should be good enough to put up with a partner with bad positioning). You know they are not going to cover it - so why are YOU making the problem? They are playing a certain way tactically, and they are not capable of playing "standard" doubles. So YOU should be playing in a way that makes up for this by either smashing and covering the net yourself OR by hitting the clear so that they know what to expect. 3. Your partner is in the wrong place. BUT, given where he is, you should be in the middle and you should try to defend smashes to both side lines. Realistically you will not be able to do it, but you should try. This is something hard to learn but something you MUST learn: you MUST cover the court with your partner, which means moving your position based on their position. Yes, their position is tactically stupid and I would call it "wrong" - but you shouldn't be arguing about it. You should be trying hard to cover for them, so that you are the best partner ever. 4. This is a tricky one. I agree that in theory, if you hit a block, then you should go forwards to attack the net. However, in reality, there are lots of variables here. If you hit your shot, and do not move immediately forwards, then YOU are in the wrong. Because your partner position is based on yours, and you are standing at the side, if you then suddenly move, then you are causing the problem (not him). However I agree that if you moved immediately and he doesn't move to cover the court, then he is in the wrong (in the same way you were in the wrong in point 3 - you should be moving based on what your partner does). However again, if you partner wants you to play the block and not move forwards, why don't you just do that. It is instead a version of "side attacking", which is absolutely fine and works very well. If you keep moving forwards and that keeps creating a problem, then why aren't you changing your game to fit in with your partner?! So, whilst I agree that tactically there is not much wrong with what you said (although point 1 is debatable and point 4 depends on how quickly you move forwards) I am not impressed with your attitude as a partner: Firstly you should not be debating or arguing anything. You can explain what you are doing, but do not criticize anything they are doing - its rude. Secondly, it sounds as if you are being quite stubborn (your partner is too - but that doesn't make it ok). You should be able to play differently based on different partners, and just try your best. If your partner has tactics that are terrible, then try to help them make it work! Instead, it sounds like you are just giving up and not bothering to try. Maybe, even though their tactics are not "standard" and wouldn't work at a higher level, if you tried harder to play their way in the games you are with them, you will be able to make it work and win and enjoy yourself more. You can always play "correctly" when you get a partner who knows what they are doing. 3. It sounds like you are going out of your way to play badly sometimes e.g. doing the same bad tactics as your partner just to teach him a lesson. What is the point of this? Its just intentionally playing badly, which is disrespectful to the opponents and your partner. You should be trying your best the entire time. My post is probably a little confusing. I think you have the right idea about how the game should ideally be played, but you have a bad attitude to actually playing with other people. The things I have written are things that YOU can do NOW in order to enjoy the game more, win more, and means your partners will enjoy the game more. Note: if you cannot change your game, and you can't play different tactics, then you have lots to work on! Focus on that and on improving your own game and your own speed etc. Do not focus on bad partners and their bad habits - it doesn't help. I would suggest that finding a better club with better players is a good idea... but that doesn't mean that you don't need to improve your game. As an advanced player, I have to play with weaker players all the time in a social setting - and they don't do things that I expect. But as long as I try my hardest and keep fighting and trying to win, regardless of my partner, then I come off court as a winner. I would go so far as to say that there are only a couple of players that play completely the way I like - I have to make some adjustments with most players (even good players). Good luck to you!
Bro, what you need to do is to find other player as your new partner, obviously your current partner don't understand doubles basic tactics. All of your situations happens to me before when I was a beginner in this sport, especially the situation that I smash, my partner stand at the side then the opponent block and the shuttle drop in front our court, then they won a point, but my partner blamed me for not immediately follow-up and rush to save the block after my own smash. Conclusion, after I got a new partner who understand the badminton doubles basic tactics, I enjoyed every moments of my game time.
