Strength standards for badminton players

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by toto87, May 18, 2015.

  1. toto87

    toto87 New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Hello

    I'm interested in knowing if there are some strength standards for badminton players for basic exercises like squat, bench press, pull, in relation to bodyweight.
    For example i've seen on some posts here that top players can usually squat 2.5 to 3 times their bodyweight.
    So I thought maybe some trainers decided for "standards" of what a hoppefully future top player should be aiming for in strength training long term or what would be acceptable as a minimum (idk, for example what would we aim for as strength requirements for a 14 year old national champion in 4-5 future years of training..? squat 2 times bodyweight, press 1.5 times bodyweight...etc?)
    If someone knows more about it, i'd like to read :)

    I know this is very specific, not sure anybody will have answers but I'll try anyway!

    Thank you !
     
  2. Yousor

    Yousor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Germany
    Professional women load the backsquat with 80 kg. Every badminton player should be able to backsquat bodyweight after one year of proper training besides the normal training schedule, maybe even less time.
    Have a look at LCW. If this is professional olympic lifting equipment it means 55 kg single legged. So you can definitely shoot for bodyweight single legged, 2 times bodyweight on the backsquat.
    Which by the way is a good standard for strong legs, but not for average Joe of course.
    2.5 times or 3 times bodyweight is a lot of weight and takes a good amount of time to get there.
    Imagine a tall player like Chen long at a little over 80 kg/177 lbs. He would have to squat 240 kg/533 lbs. That is no small feet.
    The next thing to consider is the amount of reps done with that weight. You can go for strength (below 6 reps, the muscle is less than 30 s under tension ), for hyperthrophy (below 12 reps, muscle is under tension longer than 30s, up to 60 s) and endurance training (muscle is under tension longer than 60 s, 15 reps and up). Considering a badminton player's body frame I would assume 3 times their bodyweight are singles. 1 one rep and they are done.
    What would be the purpose of that kind of training? Strenght training is training your neurological efficiency, which means how well can you control your muscle to activate the whole muscle at a time. I don't know if this would be helpful.

    As I only do weighttraining at home and don't own a barbell, I started with the bulgarian splitsquat (BSS). Look it up on youtube.
    It is much more demanding than a normal splitsquat, because the leg that is brought behind you is only to a minimal degree lifting the weight. Another plus is, that the BSS is not quad dominant. To stabilize the motion you will have great activation of the glutes and hamstrings, so the thigh as a whole gets to lift the weight.

    Benching heavy weights is irrelevant for Badmintonplayers. But what is heavy? When do you need the pushing motion in Badminton? You will need that after a dive to recover from a smash return to get yourself up again. Doing bodyweight push-ups would be enough. Remember that all that extra weight on your upper body has to be moved around.
    The same goes for pulling movements. Even less relevant in Badminton, so bodyweight pull-ups would be enough.

    I would advise players to do more pulling than pressing, because you don't want to develop a kyphotic posture, shoulders rotating forwards and the back is rounded, like you only did pushing movements.
    This affects shoulder health. Do more rowing movements that push-ups.

    My guesses from own experience. I could dig up some more informations though.
     
  3. toto87

    toto87 New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Hey, thanks for the answer :)

    I am training mostly with bodyweight too, my purpose was not off course to train with one rep max but to have something to "aim for" even if I don't attain it.
    I'm currently training with bodyweight or slightly lested single leg full squats, and bodyweight dips, pull ups and plank exercises.
    Maxing at squat would certainly be dangerous for someone like me who doesn't practice often with barbells, so I guess I'll do it with an estimation. I weight 75kg, so for a 150 max, it would mean to be able to do about 10 reps 110 kg ( http://www.sportspecifictraining.com/1repmax.html )...That's what I will try to come closer from :). Given my performance with single leg squat, I guess my backsquat max should be around 100 or 110, so about 1.3* bodyweight...So I would need to increase my strength by about 35-40% more...rather much more work to do to get there !

    I guess I will try the BSS with some weight :). I had seen this exercice but never tried it, I have to say it really feels a lot better than split squat (that I had immediately dismissed after trying, lack of depth). BBS seems much more effective for working on deep lunge strength, seems great :)

    I agree with you, benching or pulling really heavy isn't necessary, but it's a good idea to increase your pushing and pulling strength nevertheless, to an acceptable standard (sure no pro player wouldn't be able to do some dips and pull ups at the very least).

    Thanks for the point of reference you gave me and BBS advice !
     
  4. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,642
    Likes Received:
    298
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Just a thought about the Bulgarian split squat:

    While it may be a good bodyweight exercise, be careful about loading it heavy. I had a personal trainer who got me adding 40 kg of dumbbells to this exercise, despite knowing that 40 kg standard dumbbell squats had been hurting my knees before I joined his gym.

    Despite my scepticism, I tried following his advice and got awful knee pain. He also gave me other moronic exercises like deadlifts in a trap bar -- i.e. a partial squat pretending to be a deadlift. :rolleyes: Needless to say that personal trainer didn't last long.

    Single leg exercises can be useful, but be very careful when loading them. They don't need to be heavy to be useful, as they are more about balance and stability. For single leg strength you can just barbell back-squat heavy with two legs. Both legs will be used and both will get strong. ;)
     
    #4 Gollum, May 18, 2015
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  5. toto87

    toto87 New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Yes but I don't have barbell at home, which is why I'm planning to just progressively add weight to my single leg reps instead (I might buy a lested vest)

    Thanks for the advice, I'll try to stay progressive and careful !
     
  6. Yousor

    Yousor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Germany
    [MENTION=2233]Gollum[/MENTION]
    I do the BSS with 33 kg extra weight. I have to hold onto something for balance. Working on that though. Playing badminton I have no balance problems whatsoever. I never experience any issues with my knee.
    There are some keyfactors to the BSS. Stay upright with your torso. Leaning forward puts you in a mechanical advantage and will make it easier. The good thing about the BSS is that it can be performed in a way that the knee joint doesn't move forward at all, it can for example stay above your ankle through the entire range of motion. So this is even easier on the knee and patella than a normal back or front squat.
    An issue to think about is knee movement inwards, due to flat feet, fallen arches and the like. Avoid that. If you can't, train the muscles of your feet and get proper orthotics.

    As I said I train at home, do not own a barbell and don't want one. This is because of a simple reason: safety.
    If I do the BSS I can simply drop the dumbbell when the leg gives up, I get a cramp or whatever may happen.
    Now with a barbell on your back, what do you do if this happens, get crushed by the barbell?
    The first thing to learn when squatting would be to drop the barbell behind you, or walk out of the barbell so to speak.
    Dropping a 70 kg barbell in my appartement will get me some attention I guess.

    Another advantage of the BSS is that the barbell has to be supported by your spine and if not done correctly will destroy your back. Squatting is something that requires attention by someone who knows what they are talking about. There is more to it then simply going down and up. With the BSS your spine only has to support half the weight. Or the other way around. If your spine can support a certain amount of weight, with the BSS you can double the load on your legs.
    [MENTION=122668]toto87[/MENTION]
    You may train your legs once or twice a week with hypertrophy training, depending on how often you play badminton. After every badminton session you may go for simple bodyweight lunges. Alternate between legs. Left leg lunges forward, push back to standing upright both feet parallel, lunge forward with the right leg and push back to a standing position and repeat. 50 for each leg should be enough. If you can't do them in a single set, take rest and go at it again, until your each 50 for each leg.
    Takes 10 minutes at most. Rest if from the lunge position the forward leg can't push you into the standing position without touching the floor inbetween. Over time with your hypertrophy training you will feel the difference in pushing up. You will also feel a significant difference when lunging while playing badminton. Makes the training abolutely worse it, which should be your motivation. If motivation is lacking you will soon quit the squats/BSS, because it is a pretty demanding training.

    Another advice is to always do strength training after badminton sepcifique training, not the other way around. Strength training is a fixed pattern of motion, you can do that with somewhat fatigued legs, being warmed up, but not completly unable to move. At all times you know what to do. I can't play badminton for two days after I trained my legs. It is slow and requires a lot of warm up to get something going. Stretching after your training is another key factor. My legs feel tired but not stiff on the next day.
     
  7. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,642
    Likes Received:
    298
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    When I do a squat, my knees hardly move forward at all. They are only slightly in front of my ankles.


    If the squat form is good, then the spine will be safe even under heavy weights. If the squat form is poor, then heavy weights should not be lifted.


    I go back down, then down just a little further. At this point the safety bars on my power rack are holding the barbell, and I can crawl out underneath.


    That is dangerous. In a correct squat the back is not vertical except right at the end of the rep. Trying to drop the bar may result in it rolling down your back and doing horrible things to you. Don't do that.

    Either get a power rack, or get two spotters to help you (one takes each side of the bar). Or don't do the exercise.


    Agreed. To be safe and effective, you need to learn how to do it well.


    ...the downside being that you are much less stable in this position, and therefore are more at risk of joint injuries.

    Also, from a training perspective, a BSS is not a substitute for a squat, because it does not involve as many muscle groups. For example, there's very little use of the adductors.
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    16,401
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Awesome, so much information in here. Tks!
     
  9. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    16,401
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    #9 visor, May 18, 2015
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  10. Yousor

    Yousor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Germany
    Then my friend, you are an anatomical wonder. In a normal squat with the thigh at least parallel to the floor my knees are above my toes. If you are achieving this little knee travel by leaning forward that isn't a good thing either. The bar path should be one straight line perpendicular to the floor.

    I train at home and do not want to spend a gym membership just to train legs in a squat rack, leg press etc. So the BSS is an alternative to train your legs with proper weight while keeping the equipment "light" in weight and cost.

    Which is always key to every movement in the gym. Bailing out of the backsquat has to be learned too. A power rack is much safer though, I agree on that.

    So we meet in the middle. Both needs to be learned and practiced with care. Everything you have to consider wth a squat holds true with the BSS. You can overload your spine, you can get injured, damage your knees etc. Squatting with flat feet, fallen arches as an example will not make your squat better than the BSS, if you refer to standing on both feet. It will be just as bad.

    This one, I want to argue about. Your adductors are the muscles that pull the leg towards your body. I will give you my take on this.
    With the BSS you are in a position where you have to balance your leg to not fall to the left or right, so both muscle groups, adductors and abductors are involved. In a squat you specifically want to drive your knees outwards, countering the knee movement inwards that would be induced due to adductors pulling on your femur. Abducting your

    My training regiment for legs: 5 sets of BSS within the 12 to 8 rep-range. Then 2 sets of weighted glute bridge and some sets of goblet squats with light weight due to the legs being beaten up to that point, but still remaining in the 12 to 8 rep-range. Due to the fact that I am fatigued for two days after this I am doing it only once a week.
    Some bodyweight lunges after a badminton session and balance training with the bss with light weight.
     
  11. phili

    phili Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    825
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    Germany
    In my opinion you need both the squat and a weighted split squat/lunge in a good strength program. Being able to a full range of motion (front) squat shows that there is not much wrong with your mobility and squatting more frequently has helped my aching knee a lot. I went from knee pain while playing badminton to just a little discomfort the day after training in less than 2 months (maybe limited to my special case). I also got faster on court. The split squat on the other hand is a good way to work on those muscle imbalances you get from badminton.
     
  12. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,642
    Likes Received:
    298
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    My knee travel is somewhere between toes and ankles, with the front of the knee about level with the front of the toes. And yes, I "lean forward" in the sense that my back is not vertical at the bottom of the squat (it's about 45 degrees) -- this is correct for a back squat, although the amount will vary depending on the person.

    The bar takes a vertical path. On the occasion that it doesn't quite take a vertical path, I am very aware of it due to the increased effort required. ;)
     
  13. toto87

    toto87 New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Visor, about plyometrics, yes they are effective, but they increase the risk of injury quite a lot, whereas strength training reduces injuries. Both are effective at increasing different physical traits : strength training will lead to more ease and speed on hard moves like extreme lunges and basically every change of direction, plus it will certainly increase endurance in the way that, the easier a move becomes, the longer you will be able to do it. Explosive training will help jumping higher, improves movement efficiency (thus endurance) and speed...Off course both actually help in overlapping ways, it's not that distinct.

    An ideal training mixes maximal strength training with plyometrics, for sure. Personally I chose to not do plyometrics for safety regarding injuries (I'm very often injured wih tendinosis mostly), and sacrifice some potential benefits, for being able to play more often injury free (which in itself has a lot of benefits too :)).
    Another reason why I don't bother with it, is that playing badminton already is very plyometric, which means playing hard often already puts you in the "already partly trained" bag, and, the more trained you are in something, the less progress is left to be made and the harder it becomes to actually improve.
     
  14. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Leaning far forward in the hole doesn't necessarily mean the bar path isn't straight. Someone with long femurs has to lean forward to stay in balance. There's nothing unusual or anatomically strange about it - have a look at Layne Norton squatting. He isn't doing anything wrong (although bear in mind he's a powerlifter).

    [video=youtube;zcf0lHF1lY8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcf0lHF1lY8[/video]
     
  15. phili

    phili Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    825
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    Germany
    That's not the way you want to squat as a non-powerlifter though. He is doing a low bar squat where the bar is a little bit lower on his back than the average athlete would like. This way most people can move more weight but it takes work away from the legs to the back which isn't what you want as a badminton player.But I agree with your point that not everybody can squat like an olympic weightlifter with a almost vertical upper body although you shouldn't lean forward too much.

    Forward knee travel isn't as problematic as many people tell it is. I think it is a myth like you shouldn't squat too deep. I'm doing a lot of front squats at the moment and since I have long femurs my knees travel forward quite a bit. But my knees feel great while doing these and I also don't have any problems the days after squatting.
     
  16. stumblingfeet

    stumblingfeet Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Ottawa
    That squat has quite a bit of forward lean, even for a powerlifter - it's more of a good-morning squat than a standard powerlifting squat. He even references that when he gestures "shhh" with the caption INB4 Good Morning.

    I agree, forward knee travel is not the issue that a lot of people make it out to be. If you have the proper ankle mobility, it is normal for the knees to track forwards past the toes on a deep squat. The real issue I see with people who don't know how to squat, is that they do this knee bend movement with minimal involvement from the hips, and end up doing something like a sissy squat which puts a ton of load on the knees but minimal load on the hips.

    BSS can be a good exercise, but keeping it stable while loading up the weight can sometimes be difficult. The great thing for badminton players is that the racquet leg is often stronger causing it to dominate the movement in bilateral exercises, whereas unilateral exercises like the BSS force you to train the weaker leg on its own.
     
  17. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    That's incorrect sir. There is no standard powerlifting squat. And that is not a "good morning squat" assuming you use the term as derogatory, because his bar path is straight and his core is correctly braced. You can say it resembles a good morning but then we're just arguing about semantics - the point is that is not a mechanically inefficient squat for him.

    He mentioned inb4 good morning because he's well aware people who don't know any better hate on his squat because of how "non standard" it looks. You'll find him saying as much in his other videos.
     
  18. stumblingfeet

    stumblingfeet Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Ottawa
    I don't mean good morning squat in a derogatory way, it's just an exercise variation with more load on the lower back and hamstring compared to a more conventional form.

    By conventional I meant something more like this:
    texas-squat.jpg
     
  19. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    United Kingdom
  20. Yousor

    Yousor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Germany
    So it all started with my misconception of Gollum's "my knees only travel slightly". This is a relative term.

    Squatting low is preferrable, but ass to grass not necessary. Knee travel isn't a problem at all.
    Olympic weightlifters have special shoes which put them like 3 cm higher at the heel bone, which makes it easier to stay upright and really drive through your legs.

    What Lane Norton is doing is competitive squating. His upper body is almost parallel to the floor, when he drives out of the bottom position, only the hip is moving and somewhat later he gets himself upright.

    Here is John Meadows a seasoned bodybuilder. He never managed to really balance the BSS, so he simply holds onto something. No problem at all.
    (No you don't have to do that crazy amount of dropsets or workout volume for your legs in general.)
     

Share This Page