Trouble adjusting to playing higher level doubles.

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Malmortius, Jan 16, 2015.

  1. Malmortius

    Malmortius Regular Member

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    Hi.

    I've joined a new once a week 2 hour doubles group thats way above the level i play at in my other groups (But i love it). 8-12 people turn up each time and we switch people around every game. My footwork and smashing aren't the problem and i do pretty well attacking from the back, its moreso these:

    1. Returning serves. One guy keeps telling me to stand right on the front line, but i can't move back fast enough to return a flick serve, then shows annoyance at it. He also keeps telling me to step in and return early, but again, if i do that, i can't react fast enough to a flick and a few people like to flick serve a lot (Probably because they see its my weakness)

    So what i usually do is prepare to move as if they're going to flick 100%, then just lift to the back of the court if they don't. But seriously, he wants me to stand literally on the line, i've got no idea how i can return a good flick serve even with proper footwork

    2. Moving after serve. I'm also having trouble knowing whether to move backwards or forwards after returning or receiving a serve. Sometimes we'll both move the same way and i leave spaces open for easy points. Its extremely frustrating and i know its my fault.

    3. coordinating with my partner. All i know is, front and back formation is in attacking play, side by side is defensive. The problem is, once the rally has started, i forget which side to move to and i end up leaving big spaces open for the other players, or ill get in the way of my partner who was going to smash.

    Its stressing me out because while some people don't mind my mistakes while i learn, some show annoyance and seem to expect me to get it first time.

    How can i improve? I cringe every time i mess up someone's smash or fail to properly cover the court.
     
    #1 Malmortius, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
  2. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Just my personal habits and how I'm working on them.

    1. I usually stand around 25% from the service line (racket foot forward, on the ball of my back foot), because realistically, they're more likely to try for the short serve than the flick in doubles. Taking a longer stance often helps out with moving backwards.

    If they flick I just rock back onto my back foot, switch foot, and scissor back.

    One of my personal issues with this method, is I have a few opponents that observe this method too, and use a wide serve into the side tram. If I'm in the left service court this can prove difficult to counter, especially if it's close to the service line. Responding with my backhand can end up with a short lift and an easy net kill for them.

    2. If you're playing front back, and you're serving from the service line, you want to stay forward. You're already too far forward to justify moving backwards. If they flick it, your partner should move into the front position.

    3. I'm not sure how to respond to this. I just find my coordination is a lot better with some players than it is others.

    Be careful about switching into a defensive position, because sometimes your opponents will catch this, and then they'll play a net shot/dropshot to the area you just moved away from.

    Those are just my two cents.
     
  3. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Firstly: I recommend you spend some time actually watching these players play - it will help your understanding :)

    However, some answers to your questions:

    1) If you can't stand on the front line and return a flick serve, then don't. I stand a foot back from the line, and I step in to take the shuttle early enough at the net to cause most players a problem - I do not need to toe the line as you are being told to do. I suggest you ignore the 1 guy, or, better yet, ask him to explain exactly how to do those things e.g. demonstrate how you do these things, and then help you learn. If he helps, then you get a free lesson and can improve :) if he doesn't then ignore his advice - he is not helping you, just blaming you - the sign of a terrible partner.

    Try to just stand ready - if they flick serve, just clear it! If they short serve, try to attack it. A good return to choose is a simple net shot return - take the shuttle early and play a simple net shot back to the middle of the court - most servers will then lift the shuttle. You will be fine :)

    2) If you are returning serve, and you play a lift, then move backwards, onto the side you are already on. If you play an attacking shot from a short serve, then stay at the net, roughly in the middle, with your racket up! If you play an attacking shot from the back of the court, then stay at the back of the court. Its very simple - just don't overcomplicate it. Stay on your side, don't cross sides, and if you are at the front attacking, then stay there. If your partner starts attacking from somewhere e.g. the back, then you need to move to the other place e.g. the front - if your partner received serve and attacks from the front, you need to be ready to attack from the back.

    3. This is really easy! There are some simple rules:
    Don't cross sides when moving to defend - stay in the same half you already are.
    The person at the front of the court (when attacking) chooses where to move in defence - so if your side is attacking, but someone then has to play a lift, you need to change to defending. In this situation, the guy at the front chooses (quickly) which way to move and the one at the back (who can see) will go to the other side.
    However, don't make life hard for your partner. Imagine you are at the front and your partner is at the back, and the shuttle goes to the back and your partner plays a clear. You need to change from front-back into sides (as you correctly said). As the front player, you choose which side to go to BUT... DON'T choose the side your partner is already on - thats just going to make him have to run lots to get to the other side. Just choose the side where he isn't already stood.
    Finally - how do you know who should take each shot? Its whoever is closest to it. Simple. Whoever is closest should go for the shot.

    You should really be trying to learn and understand from the group, rather than getting stressed out about it - if you don't know how to play doubles "properly", then they can either help you learn (nice group) or make you feel bad (in which case - don't play with them anymore, they are just mean!).
     
  4. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    So when I've had partners that either refused to move from the net, or moaned at me for moving back, they were just being a nuisance? Because I've had other partners that end up playing defensively but I end up too afraid to move back these days because I've been moaned at so much for it in the past.
     
  5. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    You need to be much more specific. I can't help without examples of actually what happened.

    But yes - if someone just stays at the net all the time, they are wrong.
    Blaming you for moving back may be justified - depending on whether you were closest to the shuttle, or partner was already at the back etc.
    Remember - if you are stood in the wrong place and then try to move backwards, you will annoy people. Your court positioning tells your partners what you are covering - so moving from the "wrong" place will cause people to be annoyed.

    Give me specific examples, and I can help you.
     
  6. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    To OP, Matt as usual has excellent advice. And watch them play and watch some youtube pro games to learn some general doubles tactics.

    Everyone has to and will go thru what you're experiencing when they play with higher level players. You'll learn from it. Just ignore those few who look down and blame you... there's always one or two of them in any group...
     
  7. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Sounds like a lot of painful memories coming through here... but its true - we all had problems at the start!
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Lol... I feel better now... where do I send the cheque for the counselling session?
     
  9. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Haha by all means PM me ;)
     
  10. leongwaipak

    leongwaipak Regular Member

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    1. I stand about a couple of feet back which I moved back in my mid twenties when I wasn't as fast anymore. I can still go backwards for a smash off a flick serve and still have a pretty good net shot off a short serve from this position. This really depends on your skills and abilities and where you should stand. .

    2. Cover the court where your partner can't cover. Every situation and every partner is different.
    Just this week I had partners who were serving from very wide in the doubles tram lines and basically I was standing in the middle of the court.

    3. same as 2, just cover your partner wherever they can't cover. If they're smashing at the back, cover the net.
    If they're attacking the net, move back and cover the back.
    If they're smashing from a back corner, move slightly towards the other corner in case you need to move back.
    Similarly, remembering if your partner is left or right handed helps. Also knowing which hand your opponent plays with. I have previously served a certain way to my partner's benefit (served to left corner when my partner's left handed)

    These days, the body isn't as fast and agile (pushing 40 years here), so you just compensate with consistency, better strategies, and learn to play to your partners strengths.
     
    #10 leongwaipak, Jan 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
  11. Apache249

    Apache249 Regular Member

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    As someone else already said, watch lots of pro matches on youtube. Helped me out tons in all aspects of my play.
     
  12. mikescully

    mikescully Regular Member

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    you can't stay at the front the whole time, that's the whole point of doubles rotation. if you flick serve, clear or lift, you have to get back to side by side (defense stance). judge the situation whether you're attacking or defending by the shots being played. In one rally alone I and my partner can switch from attack-to-defence-back-to-attack repeated multiple times. If you attack your opponent will counter attack (block, drive return) forcing your side to lift or clear that's when you'll have to give up the turn to attack and get back to defense again. Usually counter attacks and drives (flat exchanges) are when everyone's trying to gain the upper hand by attacking again.

    If you're club or teammates are not playing the right way then there's no point to stay if you can't change (or maybe unaware) even these kind of simple basic rule of doubles rotation/tactics.
     
  13. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I think you are still in the early stages of playing badminton.

    1. Don't worry about toeing the line. You are exactly right unless your level is so high now that it's obvious you should toe the line. Look around at the county players and see how many can stand within six inches of the front service line.

    2. After you play the service return you will know the shot you have played. General rule - if the shuttle goes downwards below the net, stay at the net. Anything that goes up and behind is your partner's shot unless your partner is clueless.

    If you lift the shuttle, then step back to sides. To make it easier for yourself, do most of the lifts diagonally away from you.

    3. This is quite difficult unless you are quite experienced AND your partner is also experienced. Don't expect to get every situation right. The opponents level of play also dictates when and where to move on court.
     
  14. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Re how close to the line to stand to receive, depends on your and your opponent's play level.

    You'll just have to adjust your base forward or backward to discover for yourself what's best for you in terms of your explosiveness and footwork to intercept a flick serve vs reasonably attack a short serve.

    One way is to aggressively toe the line but prepare mentally and physically to explode backward for a flick. Or you could be more conservative and stand 1-2 ft back, in which case you don't have to worry as much about a flick, hence you'll prepare mentally and physically to explode forward to return the shuttle before it has much chance to drop further. Where you stand will surely depend on your mental and physical condition and skill level, which can vary from day to day.
     
  15. Redjack

    Redjack Regular Member

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    I wouldn't worry too much about being right up against the line, move back a bit until you are comfortable, dont let others tell you how to play, advice is okay you don't have to take it though.

    If its a short serve you should cover the net and be ready for any returns there, mid court and back court is your partners responsibility for the next shot, if its a flick and the opponent looks under pressure you can stay short,he'll most likely play a clear if hes struggling, move back if he if he looks threatening,your partner and you should be in the defensive formation, just watch for sneaky dropshots.

    A general rule I find good is who ever hits the shot moves to the closest position while the free player moves to the farthest, where you move will depend on the shot your partner makes, they rest is just getting used to your partner
     
  16. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    You can, but you don't "have to". That's a common misconception, very similar to "the forehand player picks up the smash in side-side defense". Have a look at the top-level doubles or XD, and see what the pros do usually.
     
  17. mikescully

    mikescully Regular Member

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    have a look at world level pros and see what they do! I gave those words back at you. 99% go defence stance after they lift, clear and flick serve. (^_^)
     
  18. mikescully

    mikescully Regular Member

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    [MENTION=54]raymond[/MENTION]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_U32hIzXI

    0:02 lift by LYD, LYD/YYS defense stance, Kim/Kim goes for offense/attacking
    0:07 backhand clear by Kim/Kim, Kim/Kim back to defense, LYD/YYS attacking form
    0:17 Kim lifted so Kim/Kim back to defense, LYD/YYS attacking

    and so on and so forth....

    unless you're talking XD which I'm not sure that's what OP is discussing, most men doubles will play like this. I only play men doubles so no idea about XD.
     
  19. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Pardon me. My bad... I'm only referring to flick serves, not lift, or clear. Actually, even under those lift/clear, if you play the attacking version, instead of dropping back, you may still go for offense.

    As for the flick serve scenarios, I'd looked, repeatedly, and this topic has already been discussed here in the past. I'm not going to beat a dead horse. If you're interested, you can have a look. If not, I'm not going to comment on this any further. You may believe whatever you want!
     
  20. mikescully

    mikescully Regular Member

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    don't get it mixed up with drives, show me where in this clip they didn't go defence after lift/clear even attacking clears?

    this kind of comments could be misleading to newbies who stayed front and got smashed right in their face or head, and they're the one you should be apologizing to.

    video response for server staying at front after flick serve then? I can give you tons of those who go split side by side after flick serve^^
     

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