Differences in coaches philosophy

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by FeatherDance, Nov 3, 2014.

  1. FeatherDance

    FeatherDance Regular Member

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    Hello everyone,

    Moved to a different state recently and had some confusion with ideological differences between my former coach and the current one.

    Former ideology:

    1. Jumping is discouraged because it is bad on the knees. Quick small steps are encouraged.

    2. Focus was 70% skill 30% physical. It was fairly strenuous but I didn't feel like dying every session. Shuttle drills focused more on the posture and contact point. For example, if I had an accidental 5% slice on a smash during shuttle drills it would be called out. When I did lifts the focus was on getting good height, good length, proper use of the thumb.

    3. Footwork focused on relaxed but quick stepping around the court.

    Speed and power was 100% derived from technique, flexibility, and relaxation.

    Now:

    1. Jumping is encouraged. Every move forward should be ended with a huge lunge. The reasoning is that your knees won't get injured if you have enough exercises that strengthen it. However, I found out that 2 of the coaches there have bad knees.

    2. Focus is more 40% skills 60% physical. Endurance, speed, and power all the way. For example, in smashing the speed of the drill was the focus, whether I executed the smash perfectly(say, without slice for the purpose of the exercise, and directly above my head without swinging from the side or using too much force in the arm) or not. For lifts the focus also would be the speed of which I got to the net to get the shuttle early. I am asked to jump at the net which would have been totally unacceptable.

    3. Footwork focused on bouncing and jumping. We needed to be relaxed but up the intensity so when I did the 'stepping' I am asked to change. We do hundreds of jumping exercises as well.

    I am worried about it being too strenuous but I've also noticed some things. My endurance has improved, I can just run around the court indefinitely or smash multiple times without feeling tired. Upper body strength has improved as well and certain muscles (like thigh) have become rock solid. My coach wants me to go 3x a week at least but as I am uncertain, I'm holding off to 2x to allow my body enough recovery. I feel my game has improved with the addition of speed and power, but whenever I slack in technique an posture my former coach captures it even if it is very tiny. I just hope I will not slack too much.

    So which ideology is more correct? Some have said that the former ideology is outdated.
     
  2. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    it depends on your age and what level you want to reach...

    if you're young and want to aim for state, national, international level, then you must go physical and sacrifice the knees

    if you're older and just want competitive social games that can last till you're in your 70's, then save the knees
     
  3. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

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    There is no correct ideology, there is only a suitable ideology. one ideology might work for one player, but may not for the other player.

    Search what's the most suitable for you
     
  4. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

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    There is also age and experience factor.

    I think early ages and when you are still a beginner, you should focus more on the correct technique (but still you have to train you physique!), while later you can train speed and power more as you already have the correct technique.

    and then there is strategy and tactics
     
  5. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This is a good question.

    Visor is correct. We need a little more detail on you aims and objectives. Are you playing competitions (not friendlies but Opens)?

    Are you playing singles or doubles?
     
  6. FeatherDance

    FeatherDance Regular Member

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    For my aims, I'm past the age of state->national competition, but as I love badminton I want to be able to play competitively at uni level, where there are still decent players and former state players.

    Cheung, I do better at doubles but as I'm new here, I want to develop in singles as I have yet to find a consistent partner.
     
  7. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    This is a good post with interesting points raised! Whilst others will help you figure out what you need, I want to point out something I have found very important:

    If you learn to play all shots perfectly, with plenty of time, you will not be able to play them at a fast tempo - it will be a shock, and your perfect technique will suffer. So... at some point, you are going to have to learn to play at a high speed. What many people worry about is practising with the wrong technique (even if you are learning to play at speed).

    They worry about cementing bad habits. However, eventually, during practise you will want to start hitting targets and play better shots - you will now refine your technique to take the shuttle earlier and hit steeper etc etc... As you get more comfortable doing fast drills, you can start thinking more about placement and technique. Hence, you will eventually develop the technique.

    Similarly, if you work very hard, then most of the time when you practice you will be TIRED - this is when you develop perfect technique! This is when you learn how to get the shuttle over every single time, even though you can barely move any more. When you are trying to keep a 50 shot rally going at the end of 2 hours of training and no matter what you do, everything is going in the net - thats when you REALLY learn how good your technique is.

    In the end, with lots of training, you will be fast, and have good technique :)

    The alternative is to learn all the skills perfectly, and then try to gradually increase the speed. In my view, this is more frustrating, and can often lead to players giving up or getting upset because, when you up the speed, the QUALITY of the shot completely changes and gets worse - which they are not used to. Of course... if they don't get discouraged, then they will eventually learn to play at a high speed with excellent technique. But the technique will still change completely when exhausted - you will still need to learn how to get the shuttle over the net when you can barely move your racket any more.

    In the end, with lots of training, you will be fast and have good technique :)

    So you see, both routes lead to good results (obviously - you have put lots of work in). However, the person who plays FAST first, will be better suited to winning games - when you have virtually no time to get in position to hit with perfect technique! You need to be able to just get the shuttle over, no matter how tired you are! The person who does technique first will hit excellent shots, but will not be able to execute their shots when not in perfect position, and hence may struggle to actually play games.

    My advice to everyone: if you are trying to improve your badminton, and you are able, work very hard to the point of exhaustion, and then learn to keep the shuttle in the court and over the net... and just keep going. In a years time, your technique will be excellent, and you will be able to rally forever!

    Good luck all!
     
  8. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I have a more balanced view.

    If your technique is good enough, then by all means pile on the pressure. There is no point practising something that you find easy and do well.

    If your technique is not yet good enough, then all-out pressure training is not sensible. Under pressure, all your bad habits will simply be reinforced. You will gain a little fitness, but your skills will not develop.

    This isn't a yes-or-no choice either. You have a range of options:

    The most basic routines are standing (almost) still and hitting a single shot. This is very useful when you are trying to learn something for the first time, and also can be useful for experienced players trying to change their technique.

    At the other extreme, you have high-pressure, "rally till you drop" type training. A coach can give you a fast multi-feed, or you can rally against two or three players. This is useful when you want to train shots (and footwork) that you are already very good at.

    Most of the time, you want something in between these two extremes. For example: progress to a multiple-shot drill; then a less predictable feed, or more shot choice for you; then higher pressure feeds (maybe deceptive feeds, if the feeder is good enough). Also remember to include feeds from different directions, and at different paces. For example, remember to practise not just "perfect" shots, but difficult shots -- such as a neutralising drop shot under pressure.

    I am not saying that your technique needs to be perfect before increasing the pressure. You can't wait for perfect technique; it will never come. ;) But I am saying that there is no point doing high-pressure training with broken technique.

    You need to find the right balance, and a good coach will help with this. A bad (or arrogant) coach will inflict his personal philosophy on the player, regardless of whether that approach is what the player needs right now.
     
  9. alien9113

    alien9113 Regular Member

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    I'm of a different view than the rest. It seems to me like this is a natural progression rather than a difference in ideology.

    When I first started learning badminton, my coach was teaching the same way as described under formal ideology.

    As I improved, he suggested jumps or bigger steps in order to go behind the shuttle early and save on the number of steps I have to make because of my relatively small build. (I thought it was impossible to be honest, but eventually it worked out.)

    It's also at this stage that a lot of exercises are introduced to prevent injuries, train endurance, improve strength, etc.

    If you want to be able to play state players, then this stage of training will be necessary IMO.

    If you feel that you have a technique lapse, you might want to focus on an area first rather than trying to improve all areas at once.

    This worked for me. You might want to discuss with your coach about it and/or ask how to improve various areas through various types of exercises.
     
  10. FeatherDance

    FeatherDance Regular Member

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    Thanks MSeeley, to be honest it wasn't that formerly there wasn't a lot of pace in the drills. Both coaches certainly knew the meaning of intensity, but this one brought it to new levels! I used to fret about the intensity of the former sessions but I can't even talk after these :p There was the recent jump smash training that exhausted everyone within the hour and we just stared at each other. It looked so easy when we watched the demonstrations!

    Gollum, it was helpful to realize that I can't wait for perfect technique. It could have been a matter of perception as well. Being at 70:30 technique:physical for quite a while now, the recent coach could have picked that up and made fewer corrections to my technique while pushing me physically as I also made my goals clear to him.
     
  11. FeatherDance

    FeatherDance Regular Member

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    Oops, didn't see your reply there. I reckon it's a bit of both. The current coach does have a more athletic emphasis as the training applied to everyone, but he also said something about how I had skills, but needed upgrading in endurance and speed. While the former has always told me without excellent skills, speed and power will fail you at higher levels. Anyhow it's been a really interesting change!
     
  12. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Just what exactly did you say to the present coach about your goals? :)

    Interested about what you tell us about playing singles more. I do agree there is a physical element for singles you need to train for. Yet footwork and change of pace is also very important.

    Another aspect is ability to continue the rally. Let's say you come up against the defensive player. You play a rally, then in the middle you up the pace, play three jump smashes but he gets all back and slows down the rally again. Can you slow the rally, then up the pace a second time in the same rally whilst keeping the same consistency? And so on and so on. Most singles players can't do this unless they are training twice or three times a week.

    It sounds like a different threshold of when to start the physical training. The first coach has seen you for a long time. Knows everything about you.

    The second one sees a person who has got most of the shots and is wanting to play competitions. No need to concentrate too much on technique but get the guy ready for the physical side and the school of hard knocks. A player who does not get tired easily will have more chance of winning.

    Good to challenge yourself and your technique with the higher paced physical coaching.

    It sounds like both are complimentary.
     
  13. FeatherDance

    FeatherDance Regular Member

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    I told him I wanted to bring my game to the next level and play competitively in uni.

    For having the ability to survive intense rallies I think the training is going in the right direction. There's a drill whereby player 1 needs to play an all out attacking game against player 2 who has to play total defense for 30 mins, then both switch roles and play for another 30 mins. It should be 45mins 45mins but I just started and am giving my body time to adjust.

    However the tactical aspect is still missing, such as how to master changing the pace/when to, or thwart attempts to control the pace from an opponent. I am still playing basic singles with the standard high serve to the centre RC or occasional low forehand serve but that has to change. I want to be able to play a backhand low serve and position in the front MC during receiving service but I just don't know the theory behind it. In doubles, high serves other than the occasional flick often give away the advantage as an opponent could smash before the base line all while the partner threatens any returns. It makes sense to stand in front in receiving a serve because that's where one could gain a quick advantage. Flick serves are also easier to get to because they do not extend all the way beyond the base line. In singles, I know that serving high to RC centre (also defensive clears there) reduces the possible angles of return, making it easier to cover. Also a birdie traveling down cork first is generally harder to smash for a less experienced opponent. But I rarely see a singles high serve in my uni.
     
  14. jug8man

    jug8man Regular Member

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    I prefer your former coach but the new guy has his own strengths.

    Former coach: form n foundation first.

    Current coach: intensity level

    Let's be pragmatic. You are very unlikely going to change your current coach way of doing things. No matter how many heart to heart sessions. Doesn't sound like its logistically possible to continue with your former coach either. Ya got to make do with your current coach the best u can.

    U mentioned your Skills n form are not perfect. I would say Use your current coach training to learn the ability to maintain your for Balance and technique in high intensity s/ pressure situations. Recovery of form and position within the match counts as skill and ability too.

    Whilst the current guy lacks emphasis on form n technique which i would call a heavy driller type of coach. This fits into Badminton is an 'athlethic sport' view.

    Former coach probably views badminton more as an 'artistic game of skill and technique'. These types make excellent grass root coaches. Lee CW old coach in Penang hometown falls very much into this category. Problem is they don't feel a great drive to stick with you forever as you should find your own path after completing 'study'.

    Supplement your training under current coach with an extra session to sharpen techniques. Just find a training buddy and return the favour. Ask around you might get lucky.

    Cheers.
     
  15. FeatherDance

    FeatherDance Regular Member

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    Thanks for the advice! After some time I have noticed a very significant increase in speed, power, and stamina. Also because the training is at high tempo, I have learnt to some degree, to manage momentum and retain the 'artistic form' under speed and intensity. Will try to supplement it with technique sharpening next year!
     
  16. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Well done! As you continue to train, your shots will get better again anyway, but now you are playing at a much higher pace meaning the shots are more meaningful. Good luck!
     

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